Why such a vast difference in looks in my Sebbies?

Discussion in 'Geese' started by Frogdogtimestwo, Jul 9, 2010.

  1. Frogdogtimestwo

    Frogdogtimestwo Chillin' With My Peeps

    May 21, 2008
    All three of these goslings hatched from the same parentage and they all look so different, Do you think that smooth goose will feather out properly? They are around 5 months old maybe a tad younger, I cannot remember exact day. Is it true that ganders usually feather up sooner than a goose? THANKS IN ADVANCE from a first time goose owner!

    [​IMG]
     
  2. Jenifer Kraus

    Jenifer Kraus Chillin' With My Peeps

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    Jun 16, 2010
    Kansas
    Hi There. It looks like you have smooth breasted and curly breasted sebastopols. The smooth breasted should continue to get back and thigh feathers but will not feather out like your curly. Usually curly breasted to smooth breasted will give you both feather types.
     
  3. banter

    banter Chillin' With My Peeps

    Mar 3, 2008
    Raymond Maine
    Sebs can have smooth, smooth breasted curly and all curly in the same breeding. I have all colors and all feather types to date. Even with two curlies you can get a throwback
    to a variation of a smooth. My favorite goose is smooth, and has produced my curliest geese, bred to a smooth breasted, non-related gander. It all depends on the pedigree of your geese. Most of us can't go back a couple of generations to EVEN take an educated guess on the gene pool of their geese. But, surprises can be fun! I love that you are feeding your geese a treat of Romaine lettuce, and you have a swimming pool in the background! You must love them dearly!
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2010
  4. Frogdogtimestwo

    Frogdogtimestwo Chillin' With My Peeps

    May 21, 2008
    I [​IMG] these guys, I was very leery of getting geese as I have been pecked in the behind one to many times as a kid, but these guys are so sweet and gorgeous! I am amazed at the variety of feathers and wanted some input. I can't believe the goose is sooooo smooth, she barely has a loose feather on her, and the boys both are feathering out so nice, the other gander is smooth chested but lots of feathering on his back but the goose has nowhere near the feathering the boys have [​IMG]
    They love their pool, they look like little torpedo racers in the pool and they make such joyful sounds as they are doing it, it makes my day.
     
  5. DaveK

    DaveK Chillin' With My Peeps

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    Jun 19, 2010
    Quote:I have a bit of experience with the smooth breasted as I was given a beautiful one over 20 years ago by an Ontario farmer who was trying out the idea of a smooth goose cross worked into a family of Sebastopols. He had to start out with a white goose from a barnyard flock who had the size, type, large blue eyes and temperament that would make her suited to Sebastopol breeding. Back then the long time (OLD!!! LOL) breeders would talk about using a normal feathered non Sebastopol but no one had done it. So Mr. Research as I called him decided to see what would happen. He did have birds bred from a very good line of pure curly white birds. Quality at that time in North America was severely lacking so he figured as well as learning something he might be able to create a somewhat outcrossed family without using the stringy feathered, almost degenerative Sebastopols that were then the norm. THERE WERE NO!!! SMOOTH BREASTED Sebastopols back then but the second generation iproduced what we today would call a smooth breasted. Part of my point is that there were no smooth breasted birds then because anyone who had Sebastopols bred only the curly birds (in varying quality) and these birds never produced a "throwback" to smooth breasted or smooth birds. More breeders have been working with the smooth breasted recently and they all agree, including Dave Holderread, that the curly feathered mutation is such that once the birds are curly you never see smooth breasted again. Two smooth breasts can sometimes produce curl and usually produce about 1/4 totally smooth birds or birds with so little expression of any factor for mutated feather that they look normal unless the wind lifts a few longer, wider, softer back feathers or they are otherwise examined very closely. And about half the offspring from two smooth breasted birds will be more of the same; an intermediate expression of the mutation that produces the curly feather almost everywhere on the bird. The curly and smooth breasted are both Standardized in Europe but I have never been shown pictures of or even heard mention of totally smooth birds. They do tend to breed curly breasts to smooth breasts but those smooth breasts have feather on the back and under the wings in front of the legs. The long time breeders here who have done a bit of research and have some experience will say that a smooth or nearly smooth bird may well have lost all factors for mutated feather. The only difference between them and a plain goose is that those smoothies were bred from smooth breasted Sebastopols and might have the size, type and disposition desired IF the parent stock did. But for breeding purposes it is usually suspected that they may be like that goose the Ontario farmer who went and started from square one had. A plain smooth bird. Back then I was already working with my own curly whites bred the same way as those belonging to Mr. Research. Was real interesting to watch his birds develop. The 3/4 "pure old curly strain" were like our present day smooth breasted. The 7/8ths bird I saw was gorgeous and far, far better than anything being bred and shown south of the border. Her 15/16th. daughter was the full equal of the very best birds that were being produced at that time. This man did all this in an effort to see if theory jived with reality and simply wanted to learn something. It ended up being a very interesting and fruitful project and I felt lucky to have seen the various generations and to have handled them, picking through rump feather etc.. Just fascinating. Of course nowadays the smooth breasted as well as near/totally smooth birds are everywhere and sometimes being hawked as the best thing since white bread. Dave Holderread has more experience with them than anyone I know and when he talks of them there is a reason for their use and a method to his madness. Smooth breasts can be beautiful in their own right and if you agree with Dave useful in some respects. I have some again and look forward to some research of my own. I think with breeders like the quoted poster who do specific things and pay attention to their results we will come to understand more about these birds. Dave
     
  6. Frogdogtimestwo

    Frogdogtimestwo Chillin' With My Peeps

    May 21, 2008
    Fantastic information, I had to reread it twice and think I may again! Thanks for taking the time to write that information for us/me [​IMG] I really need to order Dave Holderreads book as it has been recommended many times on this site.
     
  7. banter

    banter Chillin' With My Peeps

    Mar 3, 2008
    Raymond Maine
    Thanks! That is fantastic information! Now, how bought writing a book! It would be great to have a book just about Sebastopols to refer to! There is not much specific to the breed in print and very little on the colors.
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2010
  8. banter

    banter Chillin' With My Peeps

    Mar 3, 2008
    Raymond Maine
    Here is a Euro site that I found several years ago and saved. The third pic shows a very frizzled bird paired to (at least it looks like to me) a smooth bird. Have no idea if these birds were being shown or (?). The frizzle has a black spot and the smooth looks splashed. I also don't know how much of the info posted is conflicting to accepted USA breeding practices. Any ideas anyone?

    http://www.domestic-waterfowl.co.uk/seb.htm
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2010
  9. Jenifer Kraus

    Jenifer Kraus Chillin' With My Peeps

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    Jun 16, 2010
    Kansas
    Dave , The only thing I can add is what Great info to share . Banter I think he could write a good book too.
     
  10. Jenifer Kraus

    Jenifer Kraus Chillin' With My Peeps

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    Quote:Hi Banter, I don't know if you have the Domestic Geese Book by Chris Aston, if not it is a wonderful Book to. Mike and Chris Aston are waterfowl breeders in the UK and have compiled most of the info on the sebstopols. The BWA and in her book lists that there are 2 feather types, the frizzle and the smooth-breasted.They actually don't call it frizzle anymore due to it not being the same kind of feather like the frizzle chickens. But they did state that frizzles have curly feathers all over the body exept for the neck and head, whereas the smooth-breasted types have long, curly feather only on the back (falling from the scapulars and sometimes the wing coverts) and thigh coverts. In good specimens, the scapular feathers lift from the back and cascade to the ground. Maybe the goose in the picture just came out of breeding season, I know my smooth breasted birds look pretty bare right now. Hope that helps. The Domestic Geese Book is on Amazon.com It to has lots of good information about different breeds of geese and it has a lot of pictures to.
     

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