WILL A SELF-BLUE BANTAM COCHIN GOING TO PRODUCE BLUE, SPLASH, AND BLACK WHEN BRED WITH ANOTHER SELF

Discussion in 'Exhibition, Genetics, & Breeding to the Standard o' started by lilcougar4, Sep 6, 2016.

  1. lilcougar4

    lilcougar4 Chillin' With My Peeps

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    I was told they produce blue chicks every time, but I want to know for sure before breeding the self-blue hens to a self-blue rooster if they create blue chicks every time. I know Blue x Blue will create 50% Blue / 25% Splash / 25% Black. [​IMG]
     
  2. junebuggena

    junebuggena Chicken Obsessed

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    Self Blue is a completely different gene from the Blue/Black/Splash gene. It's a recessive dilute gene. A bird must have two copies of the gene for it to express. A Self Blue bred to Self Blue can only produce more Self Blue.
     
  3. lilcougar4

    lilcougar4 Chillin' With My Peeps

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    Thank you....That is what the breeder told me when I purchased them. I now have a friend that wants eggs from them to hatch and only wants the blue coloring. [​IMG]
     
  4. junebuggena

    junebuggena Chicken Obsessed

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    Does your friend want Blue or Self Blue/Lavende? You're using terminology for two very different colorations.
     
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2016
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  5. Jayzandra

    Jayzandra Chillin' With My Peeps

    And THIS is why it should be called lavender, not self blue. Js
     
  6. Wappoke

    Wappoke Chillin' With My Peeps

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    The answer is yes and no.

    The term self blue can refer to the plumage color of a fowl that carries an incompletely dominant blue allele and a recessive non-blue allele or a fowl that carries two recessive lavender alleles.

    If a person crosses two hypostatic self black birds and each bird is homozygous for lavender , all the offspring will be self blue.

    If a person crosses two hypostatic self black birds, and each bird is heterozygous at the blue locus ( carry a blue and non-blue allele); the offspring will be self blue, splash and self black.

    The term self refers to a solid colored bird that does not have any patterns on its feathers. Some blue birds have secondary color patterns on their blue feathers. A good example can be observed in the blue andalusion fowl which has a black lace on its blue feathers. see link below

    http://www.ruleworks.co.uk/poultry/images/poultryshow2012/andalusian-bantam7.jpg


    The term self is older terminology that describes the color of the bird like self white, self black or self buff. I believe the terminology should be changed to blue, lavender and blue laced. You will also see the term andalusian blue which should refer to blue laced.
     
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2016
  7. Egghead_Jr

    Egghead_Jr Overrun With Chickens

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    All blue birds should have lacing period. A blue bird without lacing is just a poor example of a blue bird not a self blue as it can't make blue by itself- it breeds out blue, black and splash as it's blue not lavender. Self blue is a term ONLY used for (another way of saying) lavender.

    To put it another way- blue and lavender are two completely different color genetics. Self blue is lavender and lavender is self blue.
     
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2016
  8. Wappoke

    Wappoke Chillin' With My Peeps

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    what do you call a bird that carries the blue allele but does not have lacing on the feathers.? If it is not blue then what is it?

    As I said in my earlier post self is an older term used to describe birds that do not have secondary color patterns on their feathers. The following paragraphs come from a study published by Lippincott. Here he is describing the phenotypic outcome of a heterozygous blue crossing. In his paper, he operationally defines splash as blue-splashed.

    In his descriptions, he does not describe or mention black lacing on the birds.

    " These facts have led to the current view that the case involves a single allelomorphic pair of characters. The blacks and blue-splashed represent the homozygous conditions, while the self blue is the heterozygote between the two. When blues are interbred, blacks, blues, and blue-splashed are produced in a ratio approximating 1: 2: 1 for these classes, respectively, which seems to corroborate this view."

    "Emphasis has usually been laid on their distinctness from the black and the blue-splashed birds, but it seems important to note their resemblance to these two classes. In the first place, they are like the blacks in being self-colored, that is, all feathers in all parts of the body are pigmented."

    I have provided a reference for the paper.

    Lippincott, W. A. (1918). The case of the Blue Andalusian. American Naturalist, 95-115.

    Your description of blue is based upon the Standard of Perfection's definition of blue. My descriptions are based on other sources and how the sources relate to the genetics of a bird.
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2016
  9. junebuggena

    junebuggena Chicken Obsessed

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    It's not really lacing, but edging. And it would still genetically be Blue, just not a show quality or breeder stock worthy bird. As previously stated, blue and self blue/lavender are two very different genes and completely unrelated genes. They not only inherit in completely different manners, they dilute differently. The Blue dilute gene is a dominant gene, that only requires one copy for expression. It also only affects black. A single copy of the gene produces Blue. Two copies produce Splash. The lavender gene is recessive, and it not only dilutes black to a pale grey, but also dilutes red/gold coloring.
     
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  10. Wappoke

    Wappoke Chillin' With My Peeps

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    My question was directed at EggheadJr.
     

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