Worm or Wait After Finding Single 6" Tape Worm 5 Days Ago But Nothing Since

Discussion in 'Emergencies / Diseases / Injuries and Cures' started by GuppyTJ, Aug 29, 2013.

  1. GuppyTJ

    GuppyTJ Chillin' With My Peeps

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    Hi Everyone,

    Five days ago, I found a single 6 inch tape worm in one of my chicken's poo. I am still kicking myself for not taking a picture (chalk it up to early sunrise hour and not being fully awake). At the time and before I did a lot of research, I thought it was round worm so I went to Tractor Supply and all they had that is approved for chickens is Wazine. I dosed with Wazine for 24 hours as directed.

    However, now after doing a lot of research, I'm pretty sure it was a tapeworm vs. a round worm because the worm was truly about 6 inches long. I could see what looked like segments, sort of how you can see the segments in a regular earth worm, not really well defined but segments just the same. This worm in the poo was kind of see-through too. From looking at the many pictures and worm threads here at BYC (especially those written by Dawg and the pictures he's posted and commented on), I've decided it was tapeworm.

    I NOW know that Wazine doesn't kill tapeworm or any of the other many kinds of worms, that Wazine just kills round worm. I originally thought it was a round worm before I did all the research which is why I dosed with Wazine. I also now know that to deworm tapeworm you must use Valbazen, Eqiumax, Quest Plus or Zimecterin Gold. So, I think I'm on the straight and narrow now. I'm pretty sure what I saw was a tape worm and I know what the product options are. I also know how to dose these 4 options despite the fact that they are not officially approved for chickens. I also understand the withdrawal recommendations for them. So, I think I'm all set on this front and thanks to YOU all for publishing so much great information here that I could use to figure all this out.

    I've not seen ANY sign of any worms since I found that single worm 5 days ago. No full tapeworms, no segments, no signs of illness or weight loss in any of my 9 free range chickens of 21 weeks old. Not even an expelled round worm after using the Wazine. I have plastic trays for drop trays under the roosts and I check the poo very carefully every morning (and now have my camera at the ready). So, my question is if you were me, would you still worm with one of the above 4 options that kill tape worm? Or would you wait for further signs of worms? I realize I'm supposed to re-dose 7-10 days after the first dose of Wazine anyway but I am just trying to avoid dosing if it's not necessary. There is the egg withdrawal recommendation to think about and in general, I lean towards not dosing/giving meds if it's not needed. I don't want to wait until I have an infestation either, however.

    If I do re-dose and for tapeworm (vs. redosing with Wazine), I'd probably go with Zimecterin Gold. I've never dosed orally with a syringe method required for Valbazen. I like the pea-sized dot on a piece of bread method I can do with the Z-Gold. And, I can get Z-gold from Tractor Supply vs. having to order Valbazen over the internet. Plus, the $40 for the Valbazen is probably a better value but it's expensive for me. I'm hoping I can cap the unused portion of the $10 1-dose Z-Gold tube and put it in a zip lock bag for use later.

    I think the recommendation from you who are more experienced will be that I SHOULD dose with one of the tapeworm wormers but I thought I'd ask in case I'm missing something.

    Thanks in advance,
    Guppy
     
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2013
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  2. dawg53

    dawg53 Humble

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    You've done your homework Guppy, let's finish it up. To reworm or not to reworm, that is the question lol. As you already know, wazine only gets rid of large roundworms which can grow up to 6 inches long in chickens. Chickens can carry several types of worms; capillary, cecal, gapeworms, eyeworms, gizzard worms, tapeworms and of course large roundworms. A broad spectrum wormer will kill most of these worms if not all. There are different ways of worming to get rid of these different types of worms though, some are tougher to get rid of than others.
    There are different types of tapeworms that chickens can get that vary in size from centimeters to a foot long. I've seen them in various shapes too; long and stringy with segments or flat, curly and segmented. They are tough to get rid of and some are more deadly than others.
    Knowing that you suspect a 6 inch tapeworm segment was excreted, the head of the tapeworm can still be embedded in the intestinal lining even though a segment strand/string was excreted. It will simply grow more segments until they are released one by one (appears as white rice in feces) or as a whole strand/string (as you witnessed.) Also knowing that wazine only takes care of large roundworms and no other types of worms in chickens and knowing you're dealing with tapeworms....
    If I were you, I wouldve used valbazen or zimectrin gold from the start (not wazine) on all my birds and rewormed all of them again.
    Go with the zimectrin gold now and redose them in 10 days. If you have dogs, give the eggs to your dogs for 14 days after the last dosing unless you have collie type dogs.
    I dont like tossing eggs neither but it's a small price to pay for the health, safety and welfare of the chicken...just like dogs and cats. Hold off on the equimax and quest plus, just use the z-gold.
     
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2013
  3. GuppyTJ

    GuppyTJ Chillin' With My Peeps

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    You so rock, Dawg. I'm terribly grateful for you and people like you who a) know what they're talking about (i.e, HAVE a clue per your bi-line), b) take the time to share it with others less experienced and c) answer questions thoroughly yet straight up (vs. imparting theoretical facts without giving useful recommendations).

    I hesitated to write this post because I knew the answer was very likely, "yes, reworm for tapeworm." But what I also learned from you was to worm a 3rd time for tapeworm. I also learned that tapeworms could take different forms. From what I've read and the pics I've seen, I was only aware that they were either the long worms or stringy worms or the little rice-sized segments. I didn't realize that the head of that 6 inch excreted worm could still be inside the chicken's intestine. These are things you probably can't find in a book and that only an experienced person addressing a specific situation like mine could tell me. All new and helpful information for me so THANK YOU.

    If you don't mind, I have a few more questions regarding withdrawal periods. This is just so I can learn more and maybe get your personal views. I've only got 1 of 7 pullets laying so giving the eggs to the dogs (they're not collies) won't be a big hardship. I read the thread written in 2010 where you and BlackSheepCardigans exchanged loads of information on various drugs, testing (or lack there of) on chickens, withdrawal times at https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/423896/de-worming-chickens-with-goat-safeguard-fenbendazole. It was a great thread full of info and clarification, so I book marked it. Through this thread, I learned that the meds ending with -ectins get into the plasma and tissue of the animal and therefore are in the eggs and meat. So I understand why there is a withdrawal recommendation of 14 days. What I don't understand is what the ramifications are of eating the eggs anyway? It seems that the human gets dosed with wormer but I wonder how much and how bad is it? I bet the answer is that it's unknown because of the lack of testing/approval for these drugs on chickens in the first place but I thought you might know or have info on this. Also, I take it that you personally don't eat the eggs for the 14 day withdrawal period? Is that your personal approach? Finally, why can collie dogs not eat the eggs during the 14 day period but other dogs can? Very curious indeed!

    I was just trying to learn more as I'm sure this is not the last time I'm going to have to use a wormer, especially if I decide to put the chickens on a worming schedule like many others do. Dawg, do you follow a worming schedule and if so, what is it and why did you choose that schedule? I know selecting an appropriate schedule depends on the conditions in which your chickens live such as free range vs. coop only vs. coop and run, cleanliness of the living conditions, weather conditions and climate, etc. I know that about 1/2 of all worm types are transmitted directly through the poo and about 1/2 are transmitted through intermediary hosts. Therefore, the amount and different host species the chickens ingest is a big factor in setting a worming schedule. The weather matters because that determines if the hosts are present year around or killed off by cold winter weather.

    For me just starting out, my situation is that my chickens free range (no run, no fence, secure coop at night) and we live in southern KY so we have few bugs during 4 months of winter (mid-November through mid-March). They eat a lot of grass hoppers, beetles, crickets, so was thinking of putting the chickens on a 2 or 3 times a year worming schedule, at least in the spring and fall. Maybe spring, summer and fall. I know I'm supposed to rotate wormers so the worms don't develop immunity to the wormer. I haven't figured this part out yet, what drugs to rotate between but it should be to rotate to a product with a different active ingredient. But I have time to figure this out.

    Again, so much thanks for your help,
    Guppy
     
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2013
  4. dawg53

    dawg53 Humble

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    Here's a link regarding why ivermectin is dangerous to collies and certain other dogs:
    http://www.petpoisonhelpline.com/poison/ivermectin/
    As far as humans go, basically the same thing. There are folks out there that might have an adverse reaction to residue in the eggs, no matter what type of wormer is used, no matter how minute the residue might be. It's always best to warn people. One reason that eggs arnt fed back to chickens is that the residue can help build worm resistance the next time the wormer is used..requiring a different wormer or increased dosage. In a sense, this is what has happened to ivermectin products. It has been overused more as a miteacide in chickens than as a wormer as is its primary purpose. Its use as a miteacide is a secondary benefit.
    The same is also true for antibiotics that people give their chickens when they're sick. We can easily relate to antibiotics becoming resistant to bacteria due to overuse in humans.
    The bottom line is if you use a wormer, it's a personal choice whether to eat the eggs or toss them. Personally, I toss them. You're right, there arnt any government testing regarding withdrawal periods for chickens using off label wormers...too costly. The government cares less about backyard chickens.
    You've answered your questions/statements regarding a worming schedule. Soil conditions are key as to how often to worm. I worm every 3 months sometimes sooner depending how wet the soil is. You have to decide when to worm, just pay attention to your soil.
    I dont recommend worming during molt. Birds are already under stress during molt, why increase stress on their systems?
    Wait until molt is complete. However, there will be birds that might excrete worms during molt. If this happens, never use wormers containing fenbendazole while birds are in molt. Regrown feathers will be stunted/curled and knarly looking. You can use albendazole (valbazen) or flubenvet (worminator) if you wish.
    As far as wormer rotation; safeguard, valbazen, flubenvet are all good.
     
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  5. casportpony

    casportpony Team Tube Feeding Captain & Poop Inspector General Premium Member

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    Regarding worming during molt with Fenbendazole... Several of mine have fowl pox and almost all of them are molting, but I'm going to worm them anyway. This is not something I would suggest other people do, it's just an experiment.

    -Kathy
     
  6. GuppyTJ

    GuppyTJ Chillin' With My Peeps

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    Thanks, Dawg. I wormed yesterday evening with Z-gold. Was fun learning some new things while trying to doing this. In case others are going to try this method, here's what I learned so you can learn from my mistakes!

    I tried to dose them together as a flock. I only have 9 chickens and my husband to help me. However, it didn't really work that well the way I did it because some of the chickens REALLY don't like the taste of the Z-gold on the little piece of bread. Two of them wouldn't eat the bread no matter how I tried to bate them with it and those doses got eaten by other chickens. In most cases, I'd say those 2 doses got shared by about 4 other chickens because they split it apart like they do most tidbits of food. So, at this point, of my 9 chickens total, 3 got the right dosage, 4 got about 1.5 dosages and 2 got none. Luckily, I'd gone sort of light on the dosage (a little smaller than pea sized) but all in all, not a good job on my part.

    So, I decided enough of that. I caught the 2 chickens that got no dosage. What I learned here was catching them was the hardest part. Feeding the dosed bread was surprisingly easy. Once I caught one, I sat with the chicken on my lap with my left arm around the chicken. I opened his/her mouth by grabbing the lower beak with my left hand. Once I had their mouth open just enough, I used my right hand to pop the little piece of bread into their mouth. My cockeral was a little tougher to do and I started with him (should have tried it the first time with one of the more gentle/passive pullet) as he was a little more feisty and I ended up getting Z-gold all over the place because he flicked his head as I tried to pop in the bread. I had to hold him while I made another dosed piece of bread but I finally got him to eat it down. Then, I did the little pullet. She was mighty hard to catch and I felt bad creating all this drama/scaring the heck out of the flock as I chased her around. Finally caught her and popped the bread right in. Done! Whew!

    So, when I do this again in 10 days when I redose is wait until they're on the roost just as they're going to bed. I'll take one at a time down off the roost (slowly and quietly), take them to a chair and feed them with the dosed bread by opening their beak and popping in the bread. No chasing, no freaking them out and none getting more meds than they're supposed to. Think I'll try it this way.

    Here's a picture of the closest thing to a worm (or any segments or anything) in their poo this morning. This was the poo of the one chicken I thought the 6 inch worm several days ago was from. I'm pretty sure about this because every night, I write down where they are on the roost when they go to bed so I know which poo is which chicken's. I can't tell if this is a worm or not. I see no segments and the stringy thing is sort of shredded. Can't tell if this is a worm or not. Either way, worming is the right way to go, better safe than sorry.

    [​IMG]

    Much thanks again, Dawg! Did I mention that you rock! [​IMG]
    Guppy
     
  7. casportpony

    casportpony Team Tube Feeding Captain & Poop Inspector General Premium Member

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    Next time just put some in a 1ml syringe and squirt it in their mouth.
    Here is a picture of fenbendazole paste (Panacur or Safeguard),

    From left to right:
    Small = .1cc
    Medium = .25cc
    Large = .5cc


    [​IMG]


    -Kathy
     
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  8. GuppyTJ

    GuppyTJ Chillin' With My Peeps

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    Will do! I can now see that "pea size" has many different exact dosage interpretations. I saw the syringes at Tractor Supply and they were really cheap so I'll pick them up there. You're great with the pictures, Kathy, always posting them and screen captures of labels and bottles to show the exact product, etc. A picture really is worth a thousand words, much thanks!

    Guppy
     
  9. dawg53

    dawg53 Humble

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    To get your chickens beak to open, simply pull the wattles down. If there's no wattles, pull the fluff down under the lower beak and the beak will open. Gotta pull down snugly and dont let go if they shake their head. They'll stop eventually. That's when you administer the wormer. Then immediately let go of the wattles so the chicken can swallow the wormer on her own.
     
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