Fully formed chicks with large air cells not hatching

donrae

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Jun 18, 2010
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I feel there's something basic I'm missing here, but can't see what.

I'm using a home made incubator, the Very Ugly Vintage Cooler Incubator




It has a thermostat from Incubator Warehouse, and two computer fans in the bottom.

First batch was 12 eggs. The rooster was still new-ish to the pen, so I expected less than stellar fertility. Did not wash or weigh eggs. Manually turned multiple times per day. Temp did fluctuate some as we don't have central air, but never below 97 or above 102, and those swings were pretty minimal and far between. Temp held pretty steady for the most part around 99-100. At lockdown I had 3 clear eggs, and 2 quitters. Humidity throughout the incubation was usually in the teens or 20s. I should have practiced bringing the humidity up before setting eggs. I used 3 pint jars without lids and humidity only went in the 30s. So, I wound up opening the incubator several times during what should have been lockdown, to re-wet sponges for humidity. I tried to keep humidity above 50% and did well for the most part, but I know there was too much opening the door.
One egg hatched spontaneously
Two eggs pipped and stalled, with dry membranes. I assisted them to hatch.

The other eggs never pipped. Cracked them later and all had fully formed chicks with nice large, correctly positioned air cells with no fluid in the cell.


Second batch, I tried to learn from the bad lockdown. I drilled extra ventilation holes, thinking the humidity had been too low during incubation, and maybe just not enough air flow. I also ran 1/4" tubing through one hole, into a shallow pan on the bottom shelf. Hooked a syringe to it to pour water in without opening the door. Did a practice run and was able to hold humidity 50-70% pretty well.
20 eggs made it to lockdown. I did not open the incubator at all. Temp had been very steady all incubation. Humidity had been 20-30%. During lockdown I brought that up above 50%, usually in the 50-60% range.
4 hatched. 2 healthy, 1 with a partially absorbed yolk and and without absorbing the yolk much at all. The non-absorber flopped all over the place and smeared yolk and blood on a few of the other eggs. Once I realized they yolk issue, I had to open the incubator as it was beginning to smell. That was early on day 22, though, so I think whoever was going to hatch had already hatched. Only one other egg was pipped, and the chick was already dead.
The two chicks with yolk issues both died.
I opened all the other eggs. One was a quitter, one was clear I hadn't been able to see when candling , I guess cause it's a pretty dark green. All the others, 14 eggs in total, had what appeared to be fully developed chicks. All had nice large air cells, properly positioned, with no fluid in them. The membranes were soft and pliable, nice and white and very easy for me to break through.

So, any ideas on why these chicks just aren't hatching? I appreciate any and all wisdom from you experienced hatchers
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I am sorry, I have had chicks quit last day, before, perfect babies yolk absorbed- once under a hen a baby zipped but didn't hatch. I call'm quitters. as far as the leaky belly button put flour on it and it will stop bleeding. I had a great hatch last year hatched 45 in a six egg incubator I made, but when I tried in the winter to hatch I didn't have luck and it can be discouraging. I am not hatching in winter anymore.
 
okay here are my thoughts on everything you posted, I hope something will help :)

First hatch
water jars.. surface area contributes to humidity. so, a tall glass of water with a 3" mouth has the same surface area of water as a shallow dish with a 3" mouth. ideally using a large flat dish or tray will add the most humidity. maybe you could add a 2nd tray underneat the eggs and use a small baking dish with an inch of water in it or so. I fill my incubator tray with about 1/2" and it lasts the full 3 days of lockdown but after that I have to refill it.

opening the incubator too often does release all the humidity, and if you have small surface area water it will be difficult to get it back up again. you didn't mention if your incubator has a fan? ideally the fan might blow across the water or circulate near the water to help it evaporate. that said, the purpose of high humidity is so that the membrane does not dry out when an egg pips. so it is vitally important not to cause a loss of humidity when you have pips only. during "lockdown" day 19, 20, before there are pips, technically it's ok to open the incubator. my incubator gets back up to high humidity relatively quickly though, so I don't think much of it. if yours struggles to get up to high humidity, you might need to treat it differently.

the low humidity sounds great for your first 18 days. I live in oregon too, and it's about 40% in my house, 30-35% in my incubator. so if your incubator is significantly lower than your house (teens inside the bator, 40% in the house) then you are right it needs more ventilation. in fact, I leave all the vent holes on my incubator unplugged just to utilize some of the room humiditiy on purpose. I am more toward the coast where we get a lot of rain and moisture, you might be on the desert side I'm not sure. everyone's location can impact their conditions in different ways, it's just about learning what works for you :)

oh and, the fluid wouldn't be in the air cell, it would be in with the chick. this would tell you about when the chick died. if still fluid, before d21. if zero fluid, at d21 or after potentially. you want to look at the chick's position too. was their beak close to the air cell? was it protruding into the air cell?. was the foot over the beak and it couldn't get to the air cell? was the beak at the bottom of the egg? position could tell you a lot. it could point to lack of turning possibly? how many times per day do you turn them?

2nd hatch
sounds like you are figuring out what your incubator likes, the tubing and ventilation holes are a great idea!

again you are looking for fluid in with the chick, not inside the air cell. so you need to dump the entire chick out into a bowl or a bag or something to see really how much water is in there and what color is it. did the 14 developed chicks have yolks exposed, partially absorbed, or fully absorbed and formed navels? what was their position inside the egg?

what was the temperature throughout this hatch?

it sounds like either too low temperature, or too high humidity. I would lean toward too low temperature if I had to guess. it could be just 1 degree difference. If you could increase it very slightly .5-1 degree you might see an improvement. remember it is all about learning what YOUR equipment needs. maybe your thermometer is off by a degree, or maybe you are not measuring at the correct level. the temperature must be measured at the top of the egg, any lower or higher will not give an accurate reading. use multiple devices if you aren't sure, and be sure to calibrate it when you buy it. I am also wondering about # of times turned per day?

I have started going by the temperature of the eggshell itself using a laser pointer thermometer gun. I get it very close to the egg and I always want the eggshell to be 100-101 degrees. I find that 99.5 on my incubator is too low, 100-100.5 is better for me. I do zero water the first 18 days and stay about 30% naturally. day 19 I go to 55% and 100F.

what breed are your eggs, are they barnyard mixes or purebreeds? do you know their genetic line at all? another factor is always hereditary, especially parent nutrition. you could increase their nutrition by adding vitamin supplements, or another easy fix is adding pro-biotics. pro-biotics are good bacteria that live in the gut, and will actually help the chicken's body absorb more nutrients from the food they eat rather than waste, contributing to digestive health, immune health, and egg vitality. free ranging parents on green grass is also going to give your chicks better vitality.
 
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I live in E. Washington, even though it is dry here, dry hatch does work best.






here are some of my chicks after a dry hatch I added damp paper towels after 19th day. you can see they are still nice and moist and no shrink wrap
 
Thank you for the responses, I'm glad for all the help!

I'm in Grants Pass, so not really coastal but not in the desert, either.

I do have two computer fans in the incubator. They're on the floor, pointed up. I've checked temp on the shelf where the eggs are, and at different points in the incubator. It seems pretty steady. My temps didn't fluctuate much during the second hatch, usually 98.5-100.8, but overall held in the 99s.

My incubator is set up cabinet style, with shelves. The light bulbs and fans are on the bottom, to allow the heat to rise to the eggs. Thermostat is close to the bottom, and thermometer/humidity reader is on the shelf where the eggs are, mid-incubator.

Eggs are from my own flock, basically mixed breed birds all from hatchery stock. Until this year I've hatched under broody hens and had good hatches. This year even my broodys have had poor hatches, but there always seemed to be another reason for it....first timer broke eggs, another hen interfered, things like that. My flock is pretty healthy and fertility is good overall. My rooster in my main pen is new-ish, I think I got him in March or April, and I think there are 1-2 older hens that may not be letting him mate, but other than that fertility's good.

I guess I needed to do a more complete exam of the unhatched eggs. I just cracked enough to see there was a fully formed chick and a good air cell, I didn't finish opening up and examine the chick and it's position. I guess I misunderstood, from reading folks saying chicks would internally pip and then drown I thought the fluid was in the air cell. I didn't weigh the eggs, but from the pics I've seen about how large the cell is supposed to be, I'm right on track, the air cells are nice sized. A few of the eggs I could tell still had yolk unabsorbed, but I'm not sure on all of them. Let me tell you, cracking 14 eggs with dead chicks, even as far as I went, will put you off having eggs for breakfast
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But, I can do a more complete exam if I have the same issues next time.

I'm currently at home full time, so eggs got turned a good 5 times per day.


I'll try bumping the temp up a touch next time. My humidity for the second hatch is a shallow plastic saucer like you put under your houseplants. If I fill it too much, the humidity goes to 80+. I got a good balance filling it twice a day and keeping it 50-70% overall. Can it go too high during lockdown? Or is that more of a concern during incubation, with not enough evaporation?

Again, thank you so much for your help!
 
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Thank you for the responses, I'm glad for all the help!

I'm in Grants Pass, so not really coastal but not in the desert, either.

I do have two computer fans in the incubator. They're on the floor, pointed up. I've checked temp on the shelf where the eggs are, and at different points in the incubator. It seems pretty steady. My temps didn't fluctuate much during the second hatch, usually 98.5-100.8, but overall held in the 99s.

My incubator is set up cabinet style, with shelves. The light bulbs and fans are on the bottom, to allow the heat to rise to the eggs. Thermostat is close to the bottom, and thermometer/humidity reader is on the shelf where the eggs are, mid-incubator.

Eggs are from my own flock, basically mixed breed birds all from hatchery stock. Until this year I've hatched under broody hens and had good hatches. This year even my broodys have had poor hatches, but there always seemed to be another reason for it....first timer broke eggs, another hen interfered, things like that. My flock is pretty healthy and fertility is good overall. My rooster in my main pen is new-ish, I think I got him in March or April, and I think there are 1-2 older hens that may not be letting him mate, but other than that fertility's good.

I guess I needed to do a more complete exam of the unhatched eggs. I just cracked enough to see there was a fully formed chick and a good air cell, I didn't finish opening up and examine the chick and it's position. I guess I misunderstood, from reading folks saying chicks would internally pip and then drown I thought the fluid was in the air cell. I didn't weigh the eggs, but from the pics I've seen about how large the cell is supposed to be, I'm right on track, the air cells are nice sized. A few of the eggs I could tell still had yolk unabsorbed, but I'm not sure on all of them. Let me tell you, cracking 14 eggs with dead chicks, even as far as I went, will put you off having eggs for breakfast
roll.png
But, I can do a more complete exam if I have the same issues next time.

I'm currently at home full time, so eggs got turned a good 5 times per day.
Nice, 5 times is definitely enough, even 3 would be fine. The turning is most important at the beginning, so if you could commit to 5x turning day 1-10, 3x would be fine for the remainder. just a thought..

it is pretty unappealing to crack open dead chicks, I understand :( Last hatch I had 5 clear eggs on day 10 so I pulled them out of the incubator. and cracked them into a frying pan to scramble for the chickens because they love eggs! my husband was completely horrified that they went from incubator to pan LOL! but truthfully I have learned so much from opening partially developed chicks, I do recommend it if you can stomach it, there is so much to know. it will even help you understand their development inside the shell when they are alive.

anyway I don't think it's malposition from turning, it could only be humidity or temperature and your humidity is great since you do dry incubation like me. I'm putting all my $ on temperature. either sort that out with calibration, buying new device/s, or just experiment with what works for you (eg. maybe 100 is better than 99). I can tell you that extended periods of time at 97-98 egg shell temp has killed my chicks. the ideal eggshell temp is 100-101. when I put my eggs in lockdown, and my thermometer moves to the floor of the bator, it reads 98.5 near the bottom of the eggs - but using my laser thermometer at the top of the eggs I can tell their temp is 101 on the shell which is perfect. So I intentionally use the 98.5F temperature in my lockdown hatcher because I know it's right.

Quote: if you do increase the temp, I really really recommend you add another thermometer at the same time just to compare with. on the shallow plastic saucer, the surface area maybe a little too wide from what you describe. remember its about surface area, not depth, so if you can find something slightly smaller with similar height it might work better. in my opinion, filling it twice a day is a huge problem. that is a lot of incubator opening. you should be able to fill it and not touch it again for 3 days, so try and find that perfect dish that will get your incubator to 55-60%. if the dish is the right size width and lengthwise, the surface area is correct, then you can fill it with plenty of water (like an inch worth) and it won't run out.

it will spike up to 70-80% when chicks hatch out of the shell since they introduce more moisture temporarily. but until then, try to go for 55-60% humidity. running 80% humidity is a touch too high for all 3 days of lockdown. this will slow down evaporation inside the egg the last 3 days. in fact, we want to encourage evaporation all the way up until they pip the shell. this is why you use zero water for the first 18 days, better egg evaporation. the egg is still evaporating day 19, 20, until it pips the shell. it is only at that point you really need the humidity to be high, and tape that door closed! no opening with pips! :)
good luck, and will you please post here again when your next hatch produces ALL of the chicks?!
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Thank you so much Viola for your support! I just want to say I've read and re-read your linked articles and got so much help from them since starting this incubation adventure.

I don't have to open the incubator to add water during lockdown, I have 1/4' tubing connected to a closed syringe on the outside. I just pull the plunger on the syringe, pour water in for about 3 syringes full (12 cc syringe so about 40cc water). I can look for a smaller diameter pan to use, but doing that had it pretty consistent during lockdown.

I was so, so proud of myself for not opening the door at all this time, until the unabsorbed yolk started to smell. Four chicks and I hadn't touched that door once, I never knew what an exercise in willpower that would be.

So, I'll....

1.Get a smaller diameter container and practice holding humidity 55-60%

2.Bump temp up slightly

3.Get a second thermometer

4.Do more complete exams of future expired chicks for more information/troubleshooting.

Then I'll check the calender for that magic 3 week interval when I'll be available for hatching, and let you all know
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Thank you so much Viola for your support! I just want to say I've read and re-read your linked articles and got so much help from them since starting this incubation adventure.

I don't have to open the incubator to add water during lockdown, I have 1/4' tubing connected to a closed syringe on the outside. I just pull the plunger on the syringe, pour water in for about 3 syringes full (12 cc syringe so about 40cc water). I can look for a smaller diameter pan to use, but doing that had it pretty consistent during lockdown.

I was so, so proud of myself for not opening the door at all this time, until the unabsorbed yolk started to smell. Four chicks and I hadn't touched that door once, I never knew what an exercise in willpower that would be.

So, I'll....

1.Get a smaller diameter container and practice holding humidity 55-60%

2.Bump temp up slightly

3.Get a second thermometer

4.Do more complete exams of future expired chicks for more information/troubleshooting.

Then I'll check the calender for that magic 3 week interval when I'll be available for hatching, and let you all know
fl.gif

you are very welcome!! I am happy to talk hatching and incubating with you any time, it really interests me and there is so much to learn :) I hope some of it helped, I know I always tend to type too much. I forgot about your 1/4" tubing to add water, you did post it up there I just forgot. that is such a great setup, I wish I had that! And your incubator is envy inducing too, I love it. once you get everything dialed in for your specific incubator you are going to get 100% hatches every time, I know it!


yup she's great

aw lol you are such a sweetie :) loved your chick hatching pics btw. always do!
 

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