poult hatchlings and 'flip' over

[primal woman]

How do hatcheries manage the flipping that seems so common in turkey hatchlings? When they fall over on their back, so frequently there are those who can't turn back over. I do wonder how hatcheries with hundreds if not thousands of poults manage this issue. Or do they not have the issue? (broad breasted whites)

 

[ChickenGrass]

I woukd say they have the same problem
But maybe they somehow get pushed over by other poults?

 

[SunHwaKwon]

I would guess they cull them. I don't think it's THAT common.

 

[R2elk]

How do hatcheries manage the flipping that seems so common in turkey hatchlings? When they fall over on their back, so frequently there are those who can't turn back over. I do wonder how hatcheries with hundreds if not thousands of poults manage this issue. Or do they not have the issue? (broad breasted whites)

They give the adults the proper nutrition they need to produce good healthy poults. My understanding is that FOS (flip over syndrome) is due to a vitamin A deficiency.

I do not have this problem with any of my poults and suspect that it is very rare in the hatcheries that are dealing with BBWs. I have never had it with any poults that I bought from a hatchery.

 

[SunHwaKwon]

My guess is that it has a genetic factor and turkeys producing frequent flip over poults would be removed from breeding stock. I can't see the nutritional deficiency being the cause, especially when you have some with flip over and some not despite all breeding stock being fed the same thing. R2elk's lack of flip over could also support a genetic theory. @R2elk what do you feed your turkeys and do they get range at all?

 

[R2elk]

My guess is that it has a genetic factor and turkeys producing frequent flip over poults would be removed from breeding stock. I can't see the nutritional deficiency being the cause, especially when you have some with flip over and some not despite all breeding stock being fed the same thing. R2elk's lack of flip over could also support a genetic theory. @R2elk what do you feed your turkeys and do they get range at all?

I start my poults with a 28% protein turkey gamebird starter. They graduate to a 24% protein turkey gamebird grower. My adults are fed a quality 16% protein layer pellet. The poults get grass clippings once they are a few days old. They are on sand bedding so have a ready supply of grit from day one.

The juveniles once introduced into the general population have free access to free range conditions just like the adults do.

Proper nutrition may be far more important than you think. I know a person who recently had a poult with FOS. The poult was cured very quickly by giving it a vitamin additive that was high in vitamin A. If a vitamin A deficiency is present in your flock, it can be cured by feeding alfalfa or kale as a supplement.

Failure to provide proper nutrition as poults can lead to lifelong problems, improper development of internal organs, shorter life spans and failure to reach full size at maturity.

Certain chain stores that do not carry a high protein turkey/gamebird starter don't do this because the nutrition isn't needed but do so because they feel there isn't a sufficient profit in carrying this feed. Their sole purpose is to make a profit and do not care about the health of your animals. The majority of these chain stores do not have employees qualified to give advice on what to feed your poultry.

 

[primal woman]

I agree that feed stores don't really care about much other than profit. I raise my meat chick broilers my way and don't have the same problems as others do (like they can't get up and walk etc).

Back to the turkeys though. The parents are free range. I incubated a bit differently with the third batch and have 7 poults hatched yesterday/today and so far no flip over ones! So for me...it seems the incubation was the key.

Now to sell these poults. That is way too much white meat for me! ha. And she is still laying eggs. Ugh. And the other turkey hen has babies so of course she is not laying any eggs.

Thank you all for the input. My other post received no replies!

 

[SunHwaKwon]

Having taken several courses in animal and human nutrition, I do understand the importance of nutrition. However, after reading the UC Davis paper on Vitamin A deficiency in poults, in my experience (admittedly, only one poult) the symptoms of vitamin a deficiency were not present, beyond "lack of coordination". I do give all my new hatchlings a vitamin/electrolyte/probiotic additive in their water, and maybe indeed it was that that "cured" my turkey and not the wrapping and physical therapy I did. I don't have a control case and I don't have the parents anymore, so I'll never know. In my Guineas, I have had a flipper in my last two hatches and followed the same treatment protocol. I'm considering not giving supplements or therapy to the next one to see if it makes a difference or not.

I know a higher protein content is needed for turkeys and gamebirds. However, with the flip over / vitamin a association in mind, the flock raiser that my chickens and older guineas and turkeys eat is higher in vitamin A than any of the gamebirds feeds I just quickly looked up. All I'm saying is that if it were really the cause of flip over, or the reason for not finding it in a particular flock, wouldn't you expect the Vitamin A content to be higher? To say you have never had it in your flock sound similar to people who use DE saying they have never had mites/lice/etc...What's to say you wouldn't have had it regardless, based on some other factor?

 

[SunHwaKwon]

I agree that feed stores don't really care about much other than profit. I raise my meat chick broilers my way and don't have the same problems as others do (like they can't get up and walk etc). 

Back to the turkeys though. The parents are free range. I incubated a bit differently with the third batch and have 7 poults hatched yesterday/today and so far no flip over ones! So for me...it seems the incubation was the key. 

Now to sell these poults. That is way too much white meat for me! ha. And she is still laying eggs. Ugh. And the other turkey hen has babies so of course she is not laying any eggs. 

Thank you all for the input. My other post received no replies! 

You are right about incubation being another possible cause. I've done well with chicks but have had a hard time with turkeys and guineas, both with hatching and flipping.

 

[R2elk]

Having taken several courses in animal and human nutrition, I do understand the importance of nutrition. However, after reading the UC Davis paper on Vitamin A deficiency in poults, in my experience (admittedly, only one poult) the symptoms of vitamin a deficiency were not present, beyond "lack of coordination". I do give all my new hatchlings a vitamin/electrolyte/probiotic additive in their water, and maybe indeed it was that that "cured" my turkey and not the wrapping and physical therapy I did. I don't have a control case and I don't have the parents anymore, so I'll never know. In my Guineas, I have had a flipper in my last two hatches and followed the same treatment protocol. I'm considering not giving supplements or therapy to the next one to see if it makes a difference or not.

I know a higher protein content is needed for turkeys and gamebirds. However, with the flip over / vitamin a association in mind, the flock raiser that my chickens and older guineas and turkeys eat is higher in vitamin A than any of the gamebirds feeds I just quickly looked up. All I'm saying is that if it were really the cause of flip over, or the reason for not finding it in a particular flock, wouldn't you expect the Vitamin A content to be higher? To say you have never had it in your flock sound similar to people who use DE saying they have never had mites/lice/etc...What's to say you wouldn't have had it regardless, based on some other factor?

I have been raising turkeys for over 30 years. I also have a degree in Biology and have been a life long student of animals and plants. Having spent the time getting a degree I have come to the point that I understand that what is taught in colleges and universities is not always true.

I do not feed probiotics. I do not use ACV. As for ACV there are studies showing its harmful effects when used during periods of high heat. I do not give supplemental vitamins. I do not feed hard boiled eggs. A quick google finds various analysis of hard boiled eggs in the range of 12 - 20% protein which means adding hard boiled eggs is not increasing the protein level but is actually diluting the protein intake.

What I do is to feed the newly hatched poults and keets a high quality 28% protein turkey/gamebird starter. While it is recommended to feed the high protein for 6 weeks, I believe the critical time for the poults and keets to get the high protein is the first two weeks.

I do not have FOS in my flock and have not had it. But if I saw a case of FOS in my flock, I would cull it immediately. If as you suggest it is hereditary, it would be wise to cull and not allow such a specimen to make it through to your any other breeding programs.