What color is my EE hen?

[AhTnChickens]

Hi everyone, long time luker and finally decided to make an account! I have an EE hen that I just can't figure what color she is. Came from a hatchery, so no idea what her parents looked like. Haven't gotten any chicks from her either. Very hard to get a photo that shows her colors well. In person, the lighter grey parts as the same color as my lavenders. The buff/Red parts are less gold than the pictures show, at least on my device. I would describe them as similar to buff orpington color, but lighter and a tad redder. I'm sure being an EE she's got a lot going on lol. Thanks for any ideas!

 

[house1917]

I would call her a dilute quail pattern, or it may be called incomplete columbian. (poultry genetics experts please correct me here, I'd love to learn what to call this kind of EE's color)

Like all EEs, she's a mutt, so there's not a specific standard she does, or has to adhere to. Not a wheaten, or solid buff, or laced... And I personally think they're gorgeous and love that no two hens look exactly alike.

We can both learn the right name together!

 

[AhTnChickens]

Interesting! I guess I finally got curious since I'm thinking about trying to hatch some chicks out of her. With either my black sumatra rooster or maybe one of my lavender orpingtons if one turns out to be a roo. My flock is predominantly for personal enjoyment, so I'm not really worried about standards. I like having a variety of colors, but I'm trying to get away from much red. I'd prefer to get grey/black colors or something light like her.

 

[house1917]

Pretty sure with a black sumatra rooster you're guaranteed almost all black chicks- regardless of gender. With lavender (self blue) on this hen in particular, I think you'd have potential for some interesting genetics. Lavender is just dilute black, so pairing it with other dilute genetics might work...

Again, I have a top level understanding of how it all works and hope one of the experts jumps in here!

 

[AhTnChickens]

Pretty sure with a black sumatra rooster you're guaranteed almost all black chicks- regardless of gender. With lavender (self blue) on this hen in particular, I think you'd have potential for some interesting genetics. Lavender is just dilute black, so pairing it with other dilute genetics might work...

Again, I have a top level understanding of how it all works and hope one of the experts jumps in here!

Yes, that's what think too. Especially on second generations crosses. Hoping one of the lavs turns out to he a boy. Also wouldn't mind getting some of the sumatra tail on a slightly less "wild" chicken. My sumatra roo is very pretty, but he's definitely a "look but don't touch and don't turn your back" type of dude. Doesn't seem to be a very good understanding how the various long tail genes work. It would be cool to breed the offspring from her and the sumatra back together and see what I get there. Might get lucky with a long tail non black something haha. Just not sure what avenue I want to pursue.

 

[house1917]

@NatJ Read a few of your posts and, WOW! This seems like a very simple question based on what you typically tackle- but what is the coloring/pattern of the above EE?

I have a basic understanding of cattle color genetics from a couple decades of Texas Longhorn husbandry- but poultry genetics is a whole next level.

Both for the thread, and personally I'd love to know more about EE coloration- they're among my favorite birds to have around.

 

[NatJ]

@NatJ Read a few of your posts and, WOW! This seems like a very simple question based on what you typically tackle- but what is the coloring/pattern of the above EE?

I have a basic understanding of cattle color genetics from a couple decades of Texas Longhorn husbandry- but poultry genetics is a whole next level.

Both for the thread, and personally I'd love to know more about EE coloration- they're among my favorite birds to have around.

I can't tell the name of that color-- it probably isn't standard in any breed, or if it is I don't know it.

As regards specific genes, she has blue, gold, and dark skin.
I'm not sure what other genes she has-- I can talk about them better than I can recognize some of them in a real chicken

Blue is an incompletely dominant gene that affects all black on the chicken. One copy of the blue gene dilutes black to a gray shade (called blue.) Two copies of the blue gene dilutes black to splash, which is a pale gray or off-white with "splashes" of black or blue.


Silver is dominant over gold (turns gold to white)
Light skin ("Inhibitor of Dermal Melanin" aka Id) is dominant over dark skin (most obvious effect is in the feet.)

Those two are on the Z sex chromosome. Hens have sex chromosomes ZW. They inherit W from their mother and pass it to their daughters. They inherit Z from their father and pass it to their sons. Because a hen only has one Z chromosome, dominant vs. recessive does not matter in them.

Roosters have two Z sex chromosomes, one inherited from each parent. Which genes are dominant does matter in males.

Clever use of the genes on the Z chromosome creates sexlink chicks. This hen does not have the right genes to be the mother of any sexlink chicks that use gold/silver, or dark/light skin, or barred/not-barred.

If you already know something about genetics in general, but want to know more about chicken genetics in particular, I recommend parts II and III that are linked on this page:
http://www.sellers.kippenjungle.nl/page0.html
(Part II discusses some specific genes, Part III has a table with brief notes about many genes.)

It's also fun to play with the genetics calculator:
http://kippenjungle.nl/chickencalculator.html
I like to model things by changing genes and watching the images change.
I rarely use it to predict breeding results, because I am more comfortable doing that in other ways (Punnett Squares, for example.)

 

[AhTnChickens]

Thank you for the response! So the blue gene is probably why she has the dark head and the lighter tail feathers? I have a decent understanding of genetics, but mostly from horses which generally have aot less going on lol. What would she (likely) look like if she lacked either the gold or silver gene?

What does the dark skin do with yellow leg genes? Cause I definitely prefer white or grey skin. I know some people love the yellow legs, but it's not my cup of tea.


I know if I breed her to another blue, she could have blue or splash from that aspect, any idea what gold or silver would do? I haven't gotten last black/blue/lavender/dominant white in learning about all the colors. But what I'm *really* hearing is I should breed her and then let some of those chicks have babies with her or each other and see what happens.

 

[NatJ]

Thank you for the response! So the blue gene is probably why she has the dark head and the lighter tail feathers?

Probably yes. She would have black on the head and tail, but blue is diluting the black. It's fairly common for blue to dilute the tail more than the head. (This is often obvious in photos of Blue Sexlinks or Sapphire Gemes.)

I have a decent understanding of genetics, but mostly from horses which generally have aot less going on lol.

A very basic overview of chicken color genetics:
--black and red are the two basic pigment colors
--some genes affect which pigment goes where (e-locus genes, pattern gene, columbian)
--some genes affect one of the pigments (blue, chocolate, dominant white, silver, cream, mahogany)
--some genes affect both pigments (lavender)
--some genes add white in a particular way, no matter what other pigment color is present (barring, recessive white)

That is not a complete list of genes in any category, just some examples of each.

What would she (likely) look like if she lacked either the gold or silver gene?

Short answer: that is not possible.

Longer answer: there is one spot on the Z chromosome where some gene exists. One form is named gold, the other form is named silver, but every chicken has exactly one of those on each Z chromosome she or he has.

The gold gene is the original form found in the wild Red Junglefowl. It lets the chicken have some red pigment. The silver gene is a mutation. It prevents red pigment.* Or you could say it turns all the red to white. A hen can have one or the other, while a rooster can have two gold, two silver, or one of each.

Some chickens show their gold or silver. Some do not, because they have other genes that cause them to be black all over, or black-turned-blue all over, or completely white, or something of the sort. They still have the gene(s) for gold or silver, and that will be inherited by their chicks (who may or may not have a pattern that allows it to be visible.)

*red pigment can still appear in some parts of chickens that are genetically silver. Examples are the salmon-colored breast on Silver Duckwing hens, and the red shoulders of many silver-based cockerels (that is especially common in mixed breeds, because most pure breeds with silver have been carefully selected for other genes that prevent that red.)

What does the dark skin do with yellow leg genes? Cause I definitely prefer white or grey skin. I know some people love the yellow legs, but it's not my cup of tea.

There are two genes interacting there.

Dark vs. light skin is controlled by a gene on the Z sex chromosome. Light is dominant over dark.

White vs. yellow skin is controlled by a gene on some other chromosome (no sex-specific inheritance to care about.) White is dominant over yellow.

So a chicken can have light skin that is yellow, or light skin that is white.
For a chicken with dark skin, the yellow becomes greenish, and is sometimes called "willow."
And the dark version of white is a grayish-blue color, sometimes called "slate."

The dark color usually skips the soles of the feet, so that is a common place to check for white vs. yellow. A chicken showing yellow is pure for yellow (because yellow is recessive.) A chicken showing white can still carry the gene for yellow.

A chicken with yellow skin can have it brighter or paler depending on what the chicken eats. Green plants, yellow corn, and some other things make it brighter. Yellow skin on a hen will become gradually more pale as she lays eggs, because her body puts the yellow pigment into the egg yolks instead of into her skin. The yellow returns when she takes a break from laying. This can be used to pick through a flock of chickens and sort them by laying ability. I have seen charts listing which parts bleach how fast, and return how fast. (From memory, I think the vent is fastest, legs slowest, and beak does it in a pattern from the base out to the tip over several months, so an intermittent layer might actually have stripes in her beak with light for when she was laying and yellow when she was not.)

I know if I breed her to another blue, she could have blue or splash from that aspect, any idea what gold or silver would do?

Yes, breeding blue to blue can give chicks with black, blue, or splash. That applies only to the parts of the chicken that would be black. So on a solid black chicken, it applies to the whole bird. On a black tailed red chicken, they would become blue tailed red or splash tailed red. On a Silver Laced chicken, the black lacing would become blue or splash while the silver would stay silver. And so forth for other color patterns.

The chicks could show gold, or silver, or neither one, depending on which male she is bred to. If the chicks are mostly black, they could have some leakage of gold or silver as they grow up. Whether the leakage is gold, or whether it is silver, is determined by the gold/silver genes.

I haven't gotten last black/blue/lavender/dominant white in learning about all the colors.

All of those are based on Extended Black, which makes the chicken black all over, or at least mostly black. A few other genes are usually present to help cover any little bits that would otherwise show gold or silver. Then the black is diluted to blue, or lavender, or white.

Extended Black is one of the genes at the e-locus. "Locus" just means a place on a chromosome. The e-locus has at least 5 possible genes, but each individual chicken only has two (that may match or not.) Each of them has an abbreviation that begins with E or e, and they are the first dropdown box on the chicken calculator. They have a large effect on how the black and red pigments are distributed on the chicken.

Extended Black (E) does "extend" the black to cover most or all of the chicken. It is the most dominant of the genes at the e-locus. Your Easter Egger hen does not have this gene.

Birchen (E^R) causes a lot of black too-- often hens will be almost entirely black, maybe with a bit of gold or silver at the base of their neck. It is the second most dominant gene at the e-locus. Your Easter Egger hen does not have this gene either.

The other e-locus genes seem to not be simple dominant/recessive as regards each other. A chick or a hen can show aspects of two at once. And the roosters for the next three look alike, all showing the wild Black Breasted Red pattern.

Wheaten (E^Wh) causes the least black and the most red. Your Easter Egger hen might have Wheaten.

Wild-type, also called Duckwing and a few other names, has the abbreviation e+ The + means it is the original form that came from the wild Red Jungle Fowl. Hens with this gene often have an obvious salmon color in the breast, but that can be modified by various other genes. It is common in Easter Eggers. Your hen might have this gene.

Partridge (e^b) is also a possibility for your hen. I don't know as much about this one, because I got fascinated by a few of the others when I was first studying them, and haven't gotten back to it.

I think your hen probably has wheaten, wild-type, and/or partridge, either two of one or one each of two. But I don't know for sure which one(s).

The e-locus genes have a big effect on chick down color too. Chicks that look black are usually Birchen, chicks that look like penguins (black with white or yellow bellies) are usually Extended Black, chicks with chipmunk stripes are usually Wild-type, chicks that are a solid gold/buff/red color are usually Wheaten, and Partridge chicks tend to have a lot of dark brown on them. Chicks with mixed e-locus genes can show mixed traits. All of those are affected by various modifier genes, but the underlying patterns are often (not always) still visible.

But what I'm *really* hearing is I should breed her and then let some of those chicks have babies with her or each other and see what happens.

Yes, trying it out sounds like a great idea
If you do that, please post photos!

 

[NatJ]

Doesn't seem to be a very good understanding how the various long tail genes work. It would be cool to breed the offspring from her and the sumatra back together and see what I get there. Might get lucky with a long tail non black something haha. Just not sure what avenue I want to pursue.

I've read that there is a dominant gene that causes tail feathers to keep growing (rather than stopping at a specific length.) Since it is dominant, you could breed the Sumatra rooster to the EE hen, then pick a son and breed him back to his mother (watch to be sure he does grow a longer-than-average tail). Breeding the son back to his mother should give about 50% not-black chicks, and probably half the males will have the genes to grow long tails.

I've read that there is also a recessive gene that causes the tail feathers to not molt each year, which is required if you want roosters with tails 6+ feet long, but Sumatras typically do not have that gene anyway.

If you want a non-black chicken with a long tail, you could also buy Sumatras in another color (a few exist), or look for Phoenix or Yokohama (both come in several non-black colors).