I just need to vent about my dogs

Oh, and here's the flip side. A handler warns a person about their dog and they are met with "oh, it's okay I have a X breed of dog" I work at a vet clinic and will steer people away from dogs to avoid attacks and the person I'm leading will always say "Oh, my dog is fine with other dogs!" and it's like, yeah, but that other dog might want to rip your dog's head off!

I don't know. I've met a LOT of k9 officers who know exactly jack about reading body language. At the very least, they don't understand calming signals any better than the average owner. Worst case is they think they know better because they are "alpha" so their dog will automatically behave as they think it should

dainerra said:

I don't know. I've met a LOT of k9 officers who know exactly jack about reading body language. At the very least, they don't understand calming signals any better than the average owner. Worst case is they think they know better because they are "alpha" so their dog will automatically behave as they think it should

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LOL!

I think they need to understand that alpha status is earned, not given and every animal is unique and the responses will vary according to the environment.

Reading a dog is the best way to communicate with them. I'm not trying to sound arrogant, but both my dogs are rescues due to aggression. They are both 100% stable and solid with us. However, that is because I watch them, read them, and respond according to their individual needs.

I know I will probably catch flak for this (and I certainly don't expect to change minds) but I've been working with some of the behaviorists here at the vet school and I was amazed to find out how different the domestic dog's hierarchy is compared to the wolf. The lady I was studying under mentioned several times that a common mistake (which has been perpetuated by Caesar Milan I think) is thinking you have to be alpha. She explained that there is a difference between alpha and respect. In domestic dogs, you see a whole different social system that is very different from the wolf's. You don't start seeing "alpha" behavior in dogs until they begin to revert back to feral behavior, and even then it's usually more a hybrid of the two.

She said a lot of the issues she deals with are referrals after owners have tried the alpha thing on their dogs and it backfires. After seeing some of the training in action, I can totally see how this makes sense.

When we give a dog such a domestic setting to live in, we can't expect them to act (or respond) like their wild ancestors. I also find "alpha" training to be particularly more dangerous.

I have some time this week and can look for more articles on this. I'm actually curious myself, because although I agree that domestic dogs behave very differently than wolves, I don't have a lot of knowledge about the studies done to show this.

Chickerdoodle13 said:

I know I will probably catch flak for this (and I certainly don't expect to change minds) but I've been working with some of the behaviorists here at the vet school and I was amazed to find out how different the domestic dog's hierarchy is compared to the wolf. The lady I was studying under mentioned several times that a common mistake (which has been perpetuated by Caesar Milan I think) is thinking you have to be alpha. She explained that there is a difference between alpha and respect. In domestic dogs, you see a whole different social system that is very different from the wolf's. You don't start seeing "alpha" behavior in dogs until they begin to revert back to feral behavior, and even then it's usually more a hybrid of the two.

She said a lot of the issues she deals with are referrals after owners have tried the alpha thing on their dogs and it backfires. After seeing some of the training in action, I can totally see how this makes sense.

When we give a dog such a domestic setting to live in, we can't expect them to act (or respond) like their wild ancestors. I also find "alpha" training to be particularly more dangerous.

I have some time this week and can look for more articles on this. I'm actually curious myself, because although I agree that domestic dogs behave very differently than wolves, I don't have a lot of knowledge about the studies done to show this.

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While I can see your viewpoint, it really depends on the breed. Any dominant breed (giant schnauzers, rottweilers, dobermans, etc) the only way to gain their respect is to be alpha. It is earned with them and not given. My "niche" in the canine kingdom is the dominant breeds and understanding their language and their needs from me.

My lab mix if you go "all out alpha", he'll panic. However, on occasion, he will test if he wants to take over, which usually occurs when losing a pack member.

My male giant (RIP) only respected "alpha". It was a battle to gain that respect and it was all done through canine communication. He'd outwit some of the best trainers I've ever had the honor of working with.

GAchickennewbie said:

While I can see your viewpoint, it really depends on the breed. Any dominant breed (giant schnauzers, rottweilers, dobermans, etc) the only way to gain their respect is to be alpha. It is earned with them and not given. My "niche" in the canine kingdom is the dominant breeds and understanding their language and their needs from me.

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I have showed Dobermans and also rescued Dobermans for several years. Now I have an Anatolian male (by far the most dominant/aggressive dog I have ever had) and 5 other rescues.

Dogs don't want someone to dominate they want harmony and safety within the pack, if they sense discord and insecurity it is up to the strongest dog/person to take control and keep everyone safe. Wolf packs consist of family units, survival of the pack, raising the pups communally, providing for family etc...

I get all "alpha" when dogs are seriously misbehaving, especially if it involves dog/dog aggression or other safety issues. Other than that I prefer to let the Alpha dog be just that. It isn't "Pinky and the Brain", a strong dog isn't trying to take over and destroy the world, though grant it Dobermans can be pretty obnoxious if they haven't been taught manners.

I am not a dog and they know that, it is pretty darn obvious! They are smart like that and they see the obvious! I can be soft 99% of the time and let them know occasionally that "no that is not acceptable and don't try it" and they get it. Yeah they understand what I am saying, but trust me when my alpha male gives them a look they change their behavior immediately. LOL.

The peace and harmony is created through leadership, especially if there is more than one dominant dog.

When you tell them "no" and they get it, you're being an alpha.

BurchFunnyFarm said:

I couldn't agree more. I went to the vet today and ultimately decided to have Leo put down. Just from looking in his mouth the vet said he knew his jaw was broken in two places and possible more fractures that would be revealed on X-ray. Lucy will be blind in one eye and I will give her a forever home and train her to hunt if someone doesn't want to adopt and train her.

None of these dogs will end up in shelters. They are posted for sale on 4 different sites and I will keep them and train them as long as needed to find a home where they will be hunted.

I have sobbed and cried over this. I feel so personally responsible and while I know it was an accident seeing this behavior in the dogs is alarming. They have both hunted and been fine with other dogs. I'm thinking it is about them feeling like their territory has been invaded and establishing a pack order. I have not let the puppies in the "territory" of the adult dogs and have done the best I could to avoid this. I'm really concerned about the actions of Ruger and Camo.

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Sorry to hear about your sad situation, personally I wouldn't neuter your adult dogs, I think it would be better for all to have them put to sleep. I have 3 dogs myself and they are all neutered/spayed, have seen way too many dogs and puppies in shelters waiting to be put down to ever want to breed for whatever reason.

vintagegem said:

Sorry to hear about your sad situation, personally I wouldn't neuter your adult dogs, I think it would be better for all to have them put to sleep. I have 3 dogs myself and they are all neutered/spayed, have seen way too many dogs and puppies in shelters waiting to be put down to ever want to breed for whatever reason.

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There is nothing wrong with spaying or neutering an adult animal. This is not a case of aggression, just a case of male dogs that didn't know what to make of puppies. If the only option is getting rid of the dog, it is certainly easier to find a home for a fixed animal. However, in that case I don't think euthanasia is a terrible option IF the owner feels the animal would not be able to handle shelter life well.