Bob Blosl's Heritage Large Fowl Thread

[1MrsMagoo]

Two words to successful business (and I define successful as "able to pay for feed and still have enough left over for free eggs and meat"):

• Niche
• Volume

Or to put it in Real Estate terms - some sold commercial, some residential, some specialized in condos, others in factories - once you find your niche, you know your market, i.e. buyers/sellers, and the climate. From there you can make a living.

In chicken terms, figure out first of all what it is you love and then find people who will pay you for your excess. For instance, Jeff Lay LOVES hatching chicks. He doesn't show, doesn't raise meaties, and has only a modest eating egg business on the side. But what he really enjoys doing is hatching chicks and selling hatching eggs. Not only that, but he specializes in Buckeyes. People buy his Buckeyes because they can then raise them up and take them to show and win or use them as foundation stock for their own lines. He enjoys hatching so much he has decided to branch out into Doms and Australorps. He also has a couple side projects he's working on, but those are more for fun than profitability. I suspect if his side projects draw much interest, he'll be selling chicks and eggs from them too.

Other niche markets include feathers for jewelry or crafts - especially if you make the jewelry or crafts yourself and sell them on Etsy or eBay or Craigslist - decorated eggs, photography, lithographs, or other art items. I would suggest that if you are going to sell chickens to eat, that you find a specialty meat product that you make exclusively and sell that. Create a specially seasoned chicken patty or seasoned grilling mixes or something else and sell those, especially if you raise your own seasonings.

There is no end to niche markets, so put your real estate skills to work and find out #1 - what do you love? and #2 - who will pay you for it?

And then volume is obvious. You have to sell in enough volume to recoup your marginal costs. It takes just as much work to set up and tear down the processing facility for 10 chickens as it does 100 or 500. Same for meat chickens. It takes no more effort to brood 100 meaties as 10. You still have to feed and water and toss more litter. And same for eggs. If you carry the basket and gather 2 or 20, it's still one trip out to the coop. The trick is to find the break-even point where it's still manageable for your operation and still fun, but you can also turn a profit. I haven't done that analysis because I'm still small enough that it is fun and not work. I don't believe I would ever get to the point where it is 100% work and 0% fun because I don't have that much land, but I can see where I could reach a point where it is 50/50. And that would be fine. Just not sure where that point is yet. Still having too much fun.

Good post Marengoite!

In business school the second part of your post would be referred to as economies of scale. In other words, their is a certain point where costs are spread out over enough units (whether that be eggs, chicks, slaughtered birds) where the cost per unit produced is at its lowest point and efficiency/output at its highest. For us that would mean that we may make a few dollars more than the feed bill....lol. However, if you have too few units or too many it causes a dis-economy of scale and actually costs you more than it should, thereby causing you to lose more money and time. Their may be exceptions, but they are very few and probably involve top show quality birds from nearly extinct varieties.

You are 100% correct about niche marketing. You have to look at marketing like a series of concentric circles with the smallest being your local area and the largest the entire country. In the local area, you have mainly face-to-face sales. As you move away from the inner circle toward the outer/largest one you will have transitioned to shipped items only. A person needs to find a unique blend of items to sell that they like and are gauged to whichever "circle: they'd like to sell in.

In my particular case have found that in my local area table eggs and heritage turkey poults sell the best so far, followed by goslings: I sell every egg my chickens lay and never have enough to fill all my orders and the same with the turkeys. In the areas moving away from me the demand switches to my Pomeranian goose hatching eggs, goslings, and turkey hatching eggs. To that end, we are expanding our laying flock, adding turkeys to our current flock and a second breed that people have been inquiring about, and expanding our goose flock. We are increasing in steps, so we can track income vs. expenses at each level. If you expand too radically, you may shoot past your equilibrium point and miss it. It is also trickier when two of the three best are seasonal layers, which may leave you seeming "top heavy" for most of the year. We pay to feed these birds for 8-9 months and only gain income from them during their laying season, which must be averaged out over the course of the entire year.

We have been having a very similar discussion in a thread in the turkey section. It seems that some people are not having any luck selling eggs or poults, while others of us have more pre-orders than we can fill. In this case, people got turkeys because they loved them, but didn't think about the long-range monetary implications. If you want them because you like them: That is perfectly fine, but don't expect to make much money from them. However, if you want to make money and nobody is buying what you have to sell you either need to do better marketing, or change the product you are selling to something more in demand in your area.

Also, and I can't stress this enough; Keep good records. Whether you write it on paper or put it in quickbooks....make sure to keep track or what you make and what you spend. I couldn't find any software that did what I wanted so have been building my own in Excel. I have one that does income and expenses, and one that tracks hatching and orders (plus one that keeps track of the blood lines for my goose flock). This helps me to see where my biggest expenses are located and my biggest incomes. I can also use the historic data to project sales. Plus, I know the hatch rate on any eggs I set so I can watch fertility and make any necessary adjustments in the flock (change feed, change roosters, etc).

I still love my flocks and greatly enjoy them. However, when I decided to run it like a business, the way I looked at things had to change, especially with the way feed has increased in the past several months.

Good luck everyone!

 

[colburg]

In Oregon, you would need an egg handlers license to sell to stores or restaurants or anywhere that would be purchasing for re-sale like a fruit stand. It is legal however with no license to sell "Farm Direct" off your farm or your own fruitstand on your farm where the chickens are kept and theeggs are laid. Check the laws for your State. The egg handling license here it not too big of a deal or expense but you do need to have a dedicated room with washing facilities, room for candleing (sp?), labeling requirements, etc. and I believe an initial inspection and possibly yearly inspections. Can't remember all the requirements but I have the brochure somewhere from when I looked into it a couple of years ago.

That's a great suggestion of something to look into beforehand.

In NM, I merely need to register as an "ungraded egg dealer" as long as the volume stays under 150dz/wk, and I don't grade the eggs. It's the same requirement for selling at the farmers market.

The way they refer to us as egg dealers in their legal language I feel like I should be carrying them in a large overcoat and sell them by the gram.

 

[cgmccary]

Chris,

I would agree that it takes more effort to process more chickens. That wasn't my point.

My point was the set-up and tear-down are the same regardless of the number processed. Just like painting a house. It's the same effort to get out ladders, tarps, brushes and pans to paint a 3' x 5' walk-in closet as it is for a 12' x 20' room. And clean-up is the same way. You clean the same number of brushes, pans, and rollers for the big room as for the closet. If I set up a 6 cone/1 scalder/1 plucker operation for 10 chickens or 100 chickens, it's the same amount of equipment. In fact, a low volume operation may end up with more work in the set-up/tear-down than in the actual processing itself.

As for brooding, if I'm using a 4' x 4' hover brooder in an 8' x 10' unused horse stall, the number of chicks hardly matters and it makes economic sense to brood more rather than less. Where does the extra effort come in if I'm checking feed and water twice a day anyway? Is really that much more effort to check a watering trough with 100 chicks and two heat lamps that a Rubbermaid tote with 10 chicks and a single bulb?

Processing chickens isn't like painting a house (and I'd argue all houses are not equal in painting them). There is the changing out of the scalding water, the clean-up of the feathers from the plucker (with more, of course, there is more to clean-up), more buckets of blood, more chicken parts to dispose or process & someone actually stands there and does the actual processing -- with 10 chickens, how many times are you going to change your scalding water? with 100? with 500? -- this is all "set up." How many bags of feet, heads, feathers, innards are you dealing with on 10 birds? 100 birds? 500 birds? This is all clean-up and disposal. There is the ice bath in the cooler and the bagging of each bird -- relaxing them in the fridge before freezing -- I measure how long it is going to take me per bird -- not the time on getting the plucker and plugging it in the socket, placing the scalding pot on the burner, putting the cones on the nails and processing table out (what? 10 minutes?) -- that is not what I am talking about between processing 10, 100 or 500 -- if it was only 10 minutes difference between 10 or 500, I'd say you were right, but there is a lot more to it than ten minutes of setting those things up or taking them down.

I don't know about yours, but my Buckeyes grow up pretty fast and in about a month, they outgrow a brooder -- but that is why most of the time, I have hens raising them outside in the open -- then I don't have to worry about space requirements. When I do have to worry about space, I like to give the birds plenty of space and 10 juveniles need much less space than 100 or 500; there's less poop, less space to clean too. There's more to it than feeding and watering -- I wish that's all it was, I'd choose to have 500 and not 10.

In other words, I am talking about space, grow-out pens, separating pullets and cockerels, fattening pens -- much easier with less -- IMHO, you can give less chicks more attention than more & the quality of one's birds is better if raised in a better environment (not crowded, clean, fresh air, sunshine, outside asap, etc). That is my philosophy and it has worked well for me -- I am not raising to sell to Joe Q public but for meat for my table, eggs for my home . . . but I am not ignorant enough to believe growing out 100 or 500 is as easy as growing out 10. Someone needs to know what they are getting into. How many get burned out because they take on too much, too fast? I have seen it happen, that's all -- they burn out and quit. Someone beginning needs to start small, see if it is something they like doing and then grow in increments, NOT as you suggest, 10 is the same as 500 as they are all in a 4' by 4' brooder and not a rubbermaid tote.

 

[1MrsMagoo]

Processing chickens isn't like painting a house (and I'd argue all houses are not equal in painting them). There is the changing out of the scalding water, the clean-up of the feathers from the plucker (with more, of course, there is more to clean-up), more buckets of blood, more chicken parts to dispose or process & someone actually stands there and does the actual processing -- with 10 chickens, how many times are you going to change your scalding water? with 100? with 500? -- this is all "set up." How many bags of feet, heads, feathers, innards are you dealing with on 10 birds? 100 birds? 500 birds? This is all clean-up and disposal. There is the ice bath in the cooler and the bagging of each bird -- relaxing them in the fridge before freezing -- I measure how long it is going to take me per bird -- not the time on getting the plucker and plugging it in the socket, placing the scalding pot on the burner, putting the cones on the nails and processing table out (what? 10 minutes?) -- that is not what I am talking about between processing 10, 100 or 500 -- if it was only 10 minutes difference between 10 or 500, I'd say you were right, but there is a lot more to it than ten minutes of setting those things up or taking them down.

I don't know about yours, but my Buckeyes grow up pretty fast and in about a month, they outgrow a brooder -- but that is why most of the time, I have hens raising them outside in the open -- then I don't have to worry about space requirements. When I do have to worry about space, I like to give the birds plenty of space and 10 juveniles need much less space than 100 or 500; there's less poop, less space to clean too. There's more to it than feeding and watering -- I wish that's all it was, I'd choose to have 500 and not 10.

In other words, I am talking about space, grow-out pens, separating pullets and cockerels, fattening pens -- much easier with less -- IMHO, you can give less chicks more attention than more & the quality of one's birds is better if raised in a better environment (not crowded, clean, fresh air, sunshine, outside asap, etc). That is my philosophy and it has worked well for me -- I am not raising to sell to Joe Q public but for meat for my table, eggs for my home . . . but I am not ignorant enough to believe growing out 100 or 500 is as easy as growing out 10. Someone needs to know what they are getting into. How many get burned out because they take on too much, too fast? I have seen it happen, that's all -- they burn out and quit. Someone beginning needs to start small, see if it is something they like doing and then grow in increments, NOT as you suggest, 10 is the same as 500 as they are all in a 4' by 4' brooder and not a rubbermaid tote.

Most of what is being described is beyond the "normal" person who does not have the financial resources, room, help, etc to achieve an economy of scale. This is why you see the commercial poultry industry, who honestly doesn't care about quality but rather quantity, operate they way they do. A small scale grower can apply similar principles, but are confined as you say by space, time, etc. Basically, its a balance that is unique to every person and every situation.

Also, starting small for most people makes better sense. However, if you have a business plan and financial resources (in other words have done your research and aren't jumping in the deep end of the pool blind) sometimes it is necessary to start a bit bigger. Nine times out of ten, that will not be the case with the people on this board. Most of us are hobbyists, preservationists, and small scale breeders who just want to take some pain out of the going to the feed store.

Given that though, the principles Marengoite expressed are sound and firmly entrenched business principles....just not the right ones for small scale producers. Where we can really do better is finding the right mix of breeds/items that sell well for us and stick with those. For the small scale producer, marketing and making smart choices are far more practical than trying to be a big commercial operation.

 

[Yellow House Farm]

Great point but what about those folks who want brown eggs. I guess if you dont want the H chicken you go with production reds or cherry eggers. I dont know if that is the purpose of the question about profit. If you had a high laying strain of H Rhode Island Reds you could make a profit selling the eggs not only to local folks for say $3. but if they maintained their type and color as you got them from a good breeder you could get $20 a dozen for the eggs and $8. for a chick at ten days of age ship ed to a new beginner. So if you had a dozen eggs and you hatched 8 chicks you would have $80. minus expense for lights ect to hatch these chicks and raise them for ten days. The customer pays for the postage and the ten dollar box. So that is another angle go H a help the beginners out or go production and sell local. Got to keep your numbers down only have maybe three males and say six females and you could make a few dollars that way. commerical production birds is the only way to go with local egg sales but that is what they are breed for.

If I were heading down the brown egg road and was planning to try to make the move for a heritage breed, I'd go with either Dominiques, Australorps, or RIR. I probably be most interested in looking at the Dominique, which are very much on a chunky Leghorn type that, with selection, could be, in theory, pretty good. I have to admit, though, that although these types are known producers and have a heritage of production, and my experience with selection would lead me to want to lean this way, I've never done it with them as I have with the Anconas, so I wouldn't want to be too definitive in the idea. I'd want to leave to one with concrete experience ina actually trying to do it.

Bob, I know that you had success with the RIR in breeding for eggs. However, you make a strong point. I forget which book it was in, but in one of these old classics, the comment was made that beginning poultry farmers often had to rely on meat and egg production while their reputation for good stock was being established but that after the establishment of a good resputation for stock this was the most lucrative mode of earning.

 

[cgmccary]

Most of what is being described is beyond the "normal" person who does not have the financial resources, room, help, etc to achieve an economy of scale. This is why you see the commercial poultry industry, who honestly doesn't care about quality but rather quantity, operate they way they do. A small scale grower can apply similar principles, but are confined as you say by space, time, etc. Basically, its a balance that is unique to every person and every situation.

Also, starting small for most people makes better sense. However, if you have a business plan and financial resources (in other words have done your research and aren't jumping in the deep end of the pool blind) sometimes it is necessary to start a bit bigger. Nine times out of ten, that will not be the case with the people on this board. Most of us are hobbyists, preservationists, and small scale breeders who just want to take some pain out of the going to the feed store.

Given that though, the principles Marengoite expressed are sound and firmly entrenched business principles....just not the right ones for small scale producers. Where we can really do better is finding the right mix of breeds/items that sell well for us and stick with those. For the small scale producer, marketing and making smart choices are far more practical than trying to be a big commercial operation.

I am not debating business principles.


Quote: This is simply not true. Brooding 10 or processing 10 cannot be equated with brooding 100 or processing 100 or 500. More is both more work and more effort. Of course, with more work and more effort, you will have more product (not arguing this principle).

 

[Yellow House Farm]

Greetings! Was it on this thread that a member had an excellent downloadable file of all the state regulations for shipping? I had downloaded it to my files, but it seems to not be retrievable.

 

[Marengoite]

Good post Marengoite!

In business school the second part of your post would be referred to as economies of scale. In other words, their is a certain point where costs are spread out over enough units (whether that be eggs, chicks, slaughtered birds) where the cost per unit produced is at its lowest point and efficiency/output at its highest. For us that would mean that we may make a few dollars more than the feed bill....lol. However, if you have too few units or too many it causes a dis-economy of scale and actually costs you more than it should, thereby causing you to lose more money and time. Their may be exceptions, but they are very few and probably involve top show quality birds from nearly extinct varieties.

You are 100% correct about niche marketing. You have to look at marketing like a series of concentric circles with the smallest being your local area and the largest the entire country. In the local area, you have mainly face-to-face sales. As you move away from the inner circle toward the outer/largest one you will have transitioned to shipped items only. A person needs to find a unique blend of items to sell that they like and are gauged to whichever "circle: they'd like to sell in.

In my particular case have found that in my local area table eggs and heritage turkey poults sell the best so far, followed by goslings: I sell every egg my chickens lay and never have enough to fill all my orders and the same with the turkeys. In the areas moving away from me the demand switches to my Pomeranian goose hatching eggs, goslings, and turkey hatching eggs. To that end, we are expanding our laying flock, adding turkeys to our current flock and a second breed that people have been inquiring about, and expanding our goose flock. We are increasing in steps, so we can track income vs. expenses at each level. If you expand too radically, you may shoot past your equilibrium point and miss it. It is also trickier when two of the three best are seasonal layers, which may leave you seeming "top heavy" for most of the year. We pay to feed these birds for 8-9 months and only gain income from them during their laying season, which must be averaged out over the course of the entire year.

We have been having a very similar discussion in a thread in the turkey section. It seems that some people are not having any luck selling eggs or poults, while others of us have more pre-orders than we can fill. In this case, people got turkeys because they loved them, but didn't think about the long-range monetary implications. If you want them because you like them: That is perfectly fine, but don't expect to make much money from them. However, if you want to make money and nobody is buying what you have to sell you either need to do better marketing, or change the product you are selling to something more in demand in your area.

Also, and I can't stress this enough; Keep good records. Whether you write it on paper or put it in quickbooks....make sure to keep track or what you make and what you spend. I couldn't find any software that did what I wanted so have been building my own in Excel. I have one that does income and expenses, and one that tracks hatching and orders (plus one that keeps track of the blood lines for my goose flock). This helps me to see where my biggest expenses are located and my biggest incomes. I can also use the historic data to project sales. Plus, I know the hatch rate on any eggs I set so I can watch fertility and make any necessary adjustments in the flock (change feed, change roosters, etc).

I still love my flocks and greatly enjoy them. However, when I decided to run it like a business, the way I looked at things had to change, especially with the way feed has increased in the past several months.

Good luck everyone!

OK, now you're talking my language, Mrs Magoo.

And yes, economies of scale are exactly what I'm talking about. Wasn't sure how familiar you were with a production environment coming at it from a real estate background. Sounds like you've been around the block a few times.

The big commercial egg producers enjoy vertical integration as well as economies of scale. If you Google map Croton, Ohio and travel just south of there, you will see field after field surrounding some long buildings that are their cage batteries for the largest egg operation in the state. You and I don't have the advantage of being able to grow our own feed, so that costs out very differently for them than it does for us. Not only that, they can raise a surplus and sell it at a profit after their feed bins are full. I did something similar last November when the farmer was shelling out his corn and I offered to buy it from him right out of the field. So I got a 50 gallon barrel of whole corn delivered to my driveway for $20. Win-win. He didn't have to dry it, haul it to the mill, etc. and I got cheap whole corn that has lasted all winter. But that was about the extent of my integrating. The other thing the commercial operation does is save the corn stalks in bales and use it for bedding. So that helps them cut costs too.

Would love to hear what the turkey folks are saying. What group is that? Can you post a link. I'll be getting some turkeys from Porters just as soon as he hatches them out and ships them over.

And yes on the records. I haven't done that very well this year precisely because I'm not commercial and don't want to know how much I've lost, LOL. But with 2013, I will likely be turning over a new leaf since my tax situation has changed.

But it's nice to hear a business approach to the hobby. Good post.

rick

 

[Marengoite]

Processing chickens isn't like painting a house (and I'd argue all houses are not equal in painting them). There is the changing out of the scalding water, the clean-up of the feathers from the plucker (with more, of course, there is more to clean-up), more buckets of blood, more chicken parts to dispose or process & someone actually stands there and does the actual processing -- with 10 chickens, how many times are you going to change your scalding water? with 100? with 500? -- this is all "set up." How many bags of feet, heads, feathers, innards are you dealing with on 10 birds? 100 birds? 500 birds? This is all clean-up and disposal. There is the ice bath in the cooler and the bagging of each bird -- relaxing them in the fridge before freezing -- I measure how long it is going to take me per bird -- not the time on getting the plucker and plugging it in the socket, placing the scalding pot on the burner, putting the cones on the nails and processing table out (what? 10 minutes?) -- that is not what I am talking about between processing 10, 100 or 500 -- if it was only 10 minutes difference between 10 or 500, I'd say you were right, but there is a lot more to it than ten minutes of setting those things up or taking them down.

I don't know about yours, but my Buckeyes grow up pretty fast and in about a month, they outgrow a brooder -- but that is why most of the time, I have hens raising them outside in the open -- then I don't have to worry about space requirements. When I do have to worry about space, I like to give the birds plenty of space and 10 juveniles need much less space than 100 or 500; there's less poop, less space to clean too. There's more to it than feeding and watering -- I wish that's all it was, I'd choose to have 500 and not 10.

In other words, I am talking about space, grow-out pens, separating pullets and cockerels, fattening pens -- much easier with less -- IMHO, you can give less chicks more attention than more & the quality of one's birds is better if raised in a better environment (not crowded, clean, fresh air, sunshine, outside asap, etc). That is my philosophy and it has worked well for me -- I am not raising to sell to Joe Q public but for meat for my table, eggs for my home . . . but I am not ignorant enough to believe growing out 100 or 500 is as easy as growing out 10. Someone needs to know what they are getting into. How many get burned out because they take on too much, too fast? I have seen it happen, that's all -- they burn out and quit. Someone beginning needs to start small, see if it is something they like doing and then grow in increments, NOT as you suggest, 10 is the same as 500 as they are all in a 4' by 4' brooder and not a rubbermaid tote.

I'm kind of baffled by your post, Chris. I believe I stated "I would agree that it takes more effort to process more chickens. That wasn't my point. My point was the set-up and tear-down are the same regardless of the number processed." Then you proceeded to argue that processing efforts are increased with the increased number of chickens - something I've never opposed or disputed. I get the impression that you are missing my point.

And then you talked about growing out - something I never even brought up. What I actually said was, "As for brooding, if I'm using a 4' x 4' hover brooder in an 8' x 10' unused horse stall, the number of chicks hardly matters and it makes economic sense to brood more rather than less. Where does the extra effort come in if I'm checking feed and water twice a day anyway? Is really that much more effort to check a watering trough with 100 chicks and two heat lamps that a Rubbermaid tote with 10 chicks and a single bulb? "

So perhaps you can see why I'm baffled. If one has the facilities already, once one has to go out and feed & water, any increase is marginal. You can't tell me it takes 50 times as long to feed 500 chickens as it does 10 or requires 50 times more effort. My point was on economies of scale. The effort to go from raising 0 chickens to 10 chickens is much higher than the effort required to go from raising 10 chickens to 100 chickens, all other factors being equal. If I am going to the feed mill once a month anyway, it's no more trips to pick up 10 bags of feed than it is 1. Granted, I use slightly more gas, but only marginally so. I have to haul 9 more bags of feed, but that's only a marginal increase compared to having 0 chickens and not having to make any trips to the mill at all. I don't have to make 10 times the number of trips to raise 10 times the number of chickens. I understand your point, but I don't see how it was relevant to what I was talking about. I'm not saying more chickens is not more more work. I'm saying that it is only marginally more work.

 

[Marengoite]

I am not debating business principles.

I wish I had seen this post earlier Chris. That explains the confusion.

Business principles are exactly what we were talking about. Sorry to have confused you.

rick