Bob Blosl's Heritage Large Fowl Thread

[Zanna]

My apologies for a complete change in direction here, but I would be interested in hearing your takes (everyone) on nutrition. Specifically, I am thinking of nutritional requirements for breeding stock and feeds/supplements for conditioning prior to showing. There are so many opinions on this topic, and I have read several articles written prior to the availability of processed feed, so that I believe I would benefit greatly from the first hand knowledge and experience found among the experienced breeders here on this tread. So, here are my questions....

1. What percentage of protein is minimum and maximum for adults during breeding season? Why?
2. Which vitamins and/or minerals should be supplemented at this time?
3. What is your secret food additive for putting a "glow" on your birds prior to showing?
4. Is there anything that you consider the "cardinal rule" of chicken nutrition? What is it?

First off I am not an old timer, only breeding for about 5 years and yet to go to a show, in the plans for April........ I think my birds look great and hatch rates could not be much better. That being said I am probably way overkill with all I do and I am sure many do it differently!

1. I try to stick close to 20% for my whole flock, not just my breeders. Everyone including the free-rangers get a mix of all purpose pellets (19%), egg pellet (20%) a mix of peas/corn/oats/wheat and a little Calf Manna. In my research 20% has been what to shoot for and it has worked for me.

2. The breeders that are penned get a little oil in their feed, a glug of Red Cell, a little fish meal and kelp meal added to the above mix. I give them a small amount of sprouted oats daily, small handfull of sunflower seeds a couple of days a week, and I try to give them some type of additional greens daily - dandelions, clover, chard, kale, etc. and meat scraps at least once per week (venison, pork, clams, etc.). They also have free access to oyster shell and grit.

3. My birds glow, the breeder formula is what I will also do for the show birds.

4. I don't know of any cardinal rule............

 

[Zanna]

For those of you with "traveling" crates what are dimensions for bantam and large fowl?

X2??

 

[thedragonlady]

Hi,
Amen to that! I was cured of chicken tractors years ago, the first time I had to crawl on my hands and knees thru the poop to get a Marans . We build our runs in panels. Screw them together in multiples of 5 or 6 ft. long and 6 ft. high. Makes the math so much easier. Plus, if a run needs extended, just cut out the wire on the end of the run ; add 2 side panels, a new end panel, and a roof panel, Viola! 30 more sq. ft, in a couple of hours. This modular construction has a couple of advantages. 1st, it sits on the ground, not in it so, in our township, we don't need a building permit as they are classified a Temporary" construction. I built my dog 24'x36' x 6' ft. high dog yard this way with welded wire and staples 18 yrs. ago and they still hold up just fine. Even when a 50 ft. pine tree fell kitty corner across the dog yard last year... Just stood the fallen panels back up and added reinforcing 2x4's across the top edges of the 2 undestroyed comer panels. Put in a new gate to replace the smashed one and we were good. Interestingly, the tree took out the gate but the panels between which the gate was centered were just fine
2nd, the footprint is very malleable. You can take it out in any direction to enlarge it. An L" set-up works well , with food at one end and water at the other if you want to exercise your birds.
Or a "T" set up where, if desired, you can cordon off the 2 sides of the crossbar of the "T" for special use pens.
I love tarps and those bungees with the ball at one end for roofing and weatherproofing my yards. Several screws in the uprights in the right places, slip the bungees thru the tarp grommets and slip the bungee ends over the screws. The bungees have just enough "give" to keep the tarp from ripping in the wind, while still holding it in place. If you want, done this way, you can even "double tarp" the roof. I put such a single tarp arrangement up on the yard wall where the prevailing wind hits to keep the wind and rain off my Light Sussex.
Best,
Karen

Modular is the way to go ! I haunt Craig's List for kennel panels. My husband just groans when he sees a truck full coming down the drive , and asks where are we going with these. Amazing at how little you can get these panels for, when people are moving.

 

[gjensen]

Hi,
Amen to that! I was cured of chicken tractors years ago, the first time I had to crawl on my hands and knees thru the poop to get a Marans . We build our runs in panels. Screw them together in multiples of 5 or 6 ft. long and 6 ft. high. Makes the math so much easier. Plus, if a run needs extended, just cut out the wire on the end of the run ; add 2 side panels, a new end panel, and a roof panel, Viola! 30 more sq. ft, in a couple of hours. This modular construction has a couple of advantages. 1st, it sits on the ground, not in it so, in our township, we don't need a building permit as they are classified a Temporary" construction. I built my dog 24'x36' x 6' ft. high dog yard this way with welded wire and staples 18 yrs. ago and they still hold up just fine. Even when a 50 ft. pine tree fell kitty corner across the dog yard last year... Just stood the fallen panels back up and added reinforcing 2x4's across the top edges of the 2 undestroyed comer panels. Put in a new gate to replace the smashed one and we were good. Interestingly, the tree took out the gate but the panels between which the gate was centered were just fine
2nd, the footprint is very malleable. You can take it out in any direction to enlarge it. An L" set-up works well , with food at one end and water at the other if you want to exercise your birds.
Or a "T" set up where, if desired, you can cordon off the 2 sides of the crossbar of the "T" for special use pens.
I love tarps and those bungees with the ball at one end for roofing and weatherproofing my yards. Several screws in the uprights in the right places, slip the bungees thru the tarp grommets and slip the bungee ends over the screws. The bungees have just enough "give" to keep the tarp from ripping in the wind, while still holding it in place. If you want, done this way, you can even "double tarp" the roof. I put such a single tarp arrangement up on the yard wall where the prevailing wind hits to keep the wind and rain off my Light Sussex.
Best,
Karen

Now, I will concede on a point. There is an advantage to "tractors". Fresh Grass. IF, the birds are not crowded, have some room, and are let out regularly. There is something to be said for always being on fresh ground, no bedding (straw, chips, or sand) etc. You might have to move them, but you do not have to clean out.
I imagine there are advantages and disadvantages to every method. I have all of the above. I have a row of 5' x 5' cock pens. An 8'x 12' house with a run and yard. A three compartment house (8'x 24') with attached runs, and a collection of "tractors".
I have found (the hard way) if I have an extra door on the tractors to pick birds off of the roost, it is easy to access them. The same with the nest box, and I position the waterers and feeders for easy access. The only added labor is in moving them, which is offset by not having the big clean outs and not buying the bedding.
I think the main point is the same. Think hard about the labor involved, because you will do it every day.
I always enjoy seeing a variety of smart set ups. I like how yours is set up. There is certainly more than one way to skin a cat. I get a new idea every time I see how someone else does something.
There are three people, in particular, that I like to visit. Gardeners. farmers, and poultry breeders. I see something I like, or learn something new every time. Sometimes it is just a passing comment that sticks with me.

 

[Apdeb]

I have large fowl dark feathered birds
I was told by my breeder to give feed with at least 19 percent protein! I have also learned that some oily seeds for sheen and some animal protein 3 times a week should be given two weeks prior to showing for vigor and shine!!!

 

[call ducks]

The Closed Gene Pool and Foreign Blood

A closed gene pool is more than just a gene pool which hasn't been outcrossed. It is a gene pool which has been maintained within itself for so long that any unconsidered outcross is more likely to create problems than enhance the gene pool. The genes in a closed gene pool are very stable and do not take kindly to being manipulated by anything but than an extensively researched and well educated insertion of foreign blood. This foreign blood should be from a related gene pool and no more than 25% of it should be unrelated to the closed gene pool. It should be added in thru the female side. Then the get from that breeding be bred back into the closed gene pool to re-stabilize the closed gene pool with the addition of whatever plusses were brought in from the foreign blood.
This is where many novices err. They believe they need to create "biodiversity" and found their flock by crossing strains. In closed gene pools and superior veteran line bred flocks ( both sometimes the same thing) this upsets the equilibrium of the gene pool and the novice spends years trying to re establish it or plain gives up. Research is your friend. The breeder of your birds and the history of the breed are also.
Best,
Karen

But Karen,

You can't gain back what is lost. Each generation loses genetic potential. So it's sufficient to say that these breedings can not me maintained without crossing to other lines.

While Mrs. Robertson has not added new stalk to her line, she does not need to yet. The key to having a great line of chickens is knowing when you need to cross, bring in new blood, or simply start over.

Mrs.Robertson did exactly what you said new people starting out do. But to the extreme I think she started with 5-6 different strains (even though they may have been from the same lines the strains were bred different)

Just some food for thought

 

[saladin]

First off I am not an old timer, only breeding for about 5 years and yet to go to a show, in the plans for April........ I think my birds look great and hatch rates could not be much better. That being said I am probably way overkill with all I do and I am sure many do it differently!

1. I try to stick close to 20% for my whole flock, not just my breeders. Everyone including the free-rangers get a mix of all purpose pellets (19%), egg pellet (20%) a mix of peas/corn/oats/wheat and a little Calf Manna. In my research 20% has been what to shoot for and it has worked for me.

2. The breeders that are penned get a little oil in their feed, a glug of Red Cell, a little fish meal and kelp meal added to the above mix. I give them a small amount of sprouted oats daily, small handfull of sunflower seeds a couple of days a week, and I try to give them some type of additional greens daily - dandelions, clover, chard, kale, etc. and meat scraps at least once per week (venison, pork, clams, etc.). They also have free access to oyster shell and grit.

3. My birds glow, the breeder formula is what I will also do for the show birds.

4. I don't know of any cardinal rule............

Yes, there is a 'cardinal rule.' Here it is:

THERE IS NO REAL SUBSTITUE FOR GREEN GRASS AND SUNSHINE.

 

[Wisher1000]

Saladin - thanks for the reminder. I had been recently thinking that I would keep my "breeders" up to protect them. I had forgotten that they require fresh grass and sunshine. Sometimes, all it takes is a hint..............

 

[3riverschick]

But Karen,

You can't gain back what is lost. Each generation loses genetic potential. So it's sufficient to say that these breedings can not me maintained without crossing to other lines.

While Mrs. Robertson has not added new stalk to her line, she does not need to yet. The key to having a great line of chickens is knowing when you need to cross, bring in new blood, or simply start over.

Mrs.Robertson did exactly what you said new people starting out do. But to the extreme I think she started with 5-6 different strains (even though they may have been from the same lines the strains were bred different)

Just some food for thought

=====
Hi call ducks,
I understand where you are coming from. We are dealing with 2 different trains of thought here. Mrs. Robertson could use 5 or 6 different strains because she is using population genetics to breed for utility in her Light Sussex. Absolutely no problems with selecting multiple strains to start such a program because of the selection criteria she was going to use later. ( Quite successfully, I might add).
However, if one is going to use any of the classic animal breeding systems ( instead of population genetics), then one must take into account the number of strains, whether the gene pool is closed or not, and how to admit foreign blood into your breeding program.
Let's talk about breeding plans for a moment. Basically we have 3 fields of knowledge here. Some of the major ideas transfer from style to style, but the minor laws are different. Just like when Judge Card discusses breeding for color in the penciled and stippled breeds. Basically the major laws are the same, but the minor laws vary.
1. The Biodiversity movement. In this style of breeding, all selection is done for general phenotype and utility/health only. Breed hallmarks are ignored except as they serve to enhance utility and health. Sled dogs come to mind. Color is optional, all ornamentation unrelated to utility or health is optional. If this were poultry we would see color, spurs, feathering placement , eye color, beak and shank color, number of toes, , etc... all these things would be unimportant except as they related to health/utility. The biodiversity movement breeds "landraces"., not animals bred to a Standard of Hallmarks which define their character and function ( classic animal breeding).
2. Population genetics. Here, math is king. Coupled with rigid selection and careful computations of Percentage of Line Inheritance plus production markers for utility aspects at certain ages, etc. The breeder combines strains with a view to winnowing out all but the best utility aspects of each strain as they skillfully meld the various strains together. Usually they raise many more young each year than the classic animal breeder. 1st, because they need the numbers of young to crunch the numbers for their calculations. 2nd, because they are melding strains and need to be able to select from the exponential number of genetic variations expected to crop up from such strain-crossing. When one crosses strains, the number of possible genetic variations increases exponentially ( not arithmetically) with each strain added into the project. This is why you see few average poultry people using population genetics. The number of young required each season usually is larger than their projects can handle. I know Mrs. Robertson raises hundreds of birds a year from which to select. A fine thing in population genetics.
3. Classic animal breeding systems. Line-breeding, in-breeding, out-crossing , female family inbreeding, 3 in and 1 out, Brackett's Formula, Close-breeding, spiral breeding, etc. All of these systems can work with smaller numbers of creatures which fit the average poultry breeders project size requirements. It's true, the larger number of birds one has, perhaps the easier they are to accomplish. However, they can be started with a pair, trio or quad of birds from a single superior vintage line-bred gene pool. ( closed or not). Another advantage here is that these systems have been extensively discussed in easy-to-read, lit which are math "lightweights". Instead of math formulas, they also use much descriptive discussion carried over from the "art of breeding" to make their points.

All three of these fields of breeding have their positives and negatives. But one can't simply apply judgment from one field completely to the other 2. The major rules apply for computation, selection for health and utility. However, each of the fields has different basic parameters for being. The minor breeding rules vary enough prevent one being able to apply a complete comparison and mode of judgment across all three at once.
For instance, Biodiversity praises health and utility but ignores the minor hallmarks. The defining feature of this field is that the health and utility of the creatures they are breeding are their only "pedigree".
They are at the opposite end of the breeding system spectrum from classic animal breeding, regardless of how they promote their agenda.

Population genetics rests on using calculations of utility aspects at certain time periods to winnow superior animals from a certain gene pool. They do consider the minor hallmarks. The "calculations of utility aspects at certain time periods" is the defining feature of this field .

Classic animal breeding uses careful selection plus time-proven methods of concentrating virtue in pedigreed creatures to enhance an existing gene pool or create a new one. The defining features here are that a "method is used" and the animals are pedigreed.

So while we can hold our own counsel close to our chests, when we speak of the other 2 fields of animal breeding, we must couch our conversation in
terms which apply within their framework of thought. It is a difficult thing. Almost like having to translate from one language to another . Yet needful if one expects the recipient to apply the shared knowledge to their own situation. As regards the Biodiversity folk? Forget it, they are close-minded and weeks of discussion will come to naught as soon as the conversation runs aground on one of their treasured principles.
Best Regards,
Karen

 

[ve]

...

=====
Nice post Karen