Breeding question.

[MysteryChicken]

The earlobe color is improved for one. The fathers have white, to purple earlobes rather then blue, or turquoise.

 

[HaikuHeritageFarm]

Absolutely. I've been forced to work with hatchery and otherwise inferior stock more often than I'd like to think about, but that was because better birds simply weren't available to me.

If I HAD good stock, there's no way in heck I would cross it to anything else just for "genetic diversity". That would virtually obliterate all the hard work that the breeder I bought from had put in for who knows how long. It would ruin my investment.

HOWEVER, finding spare cockerels from good lines is sometimes a lot easier than finding breeding pairs or groups or even eggs or chicks, so yeah—in that case grading in by using a hatchery bird and breeding offspring back to the "good blood" for multiple generations is a good route to take.

 

[NatJ]

If someone were wanting to get into breeding a certain breed, would it be smarter to get all of the breeding animals from a single breeder, OR get pullets from one, and cockerels from another? (I know that close inbreeding is very common with poultry. Unlike many other species.)

I would probably try both: get them from two sources, but get both genders from each source.

Then you can breed each line pure, but also cross them.

Just plan on eating a lot of chicken as you learn which crosses work well for you with those particular birds.

 

[MysteryChicken]

Absolutely. I've been forced to work with hatchery and otherwise inferior stock more often than I'd like to think about, but that was because better birds simply weren't available to me.

If I HAD good stock, there's no way in heck I would cross it to anything else just for "genetic diversity". That would virtually obliterate all the hard work that the breeder I bought from had put in for who knows how long. It would ruin my investment.

HOWEVER, finding spare cockerels from good lines is sometimes a lot easier than finding breeding pairs or groups or even eggs or chicks, so yeah—in that case grading in by using a hatchery bird and breeding offspring back to the "good blood" for multiple generations is a good route to take.

I was hoping for females from the breeder's stock hatching eggs, but got 3 boys. I spent good money on these birds.

 

[Egghead_Jr]

Hatchability and Vitality are what is affected when close breeding occurs for too long. How long that takes has many variables. One example would be Good Shepherd Bared Rocks. A closed flock for over 50 years. It has hatchability problems.

Fred's Hens took that solid line and outcrossed to a line from Maine. His result worked out well after three years of hatching many and breeding very few. The two lines niched well but could just as easily not. In that it still took rigorous work for three generations. It was a needed outcross to restore vitality then needed close mating and back crossing to limit the gene pool to produce more consistancy. A few other breeders in the past have successfully outcrossed to the Shepherd line with a lot of work. It's a solid line that was in need of diversity after many decades of closed flock in known location and those birds were originally from a single line (one source). Hatchability was the reason for those outcrosses.

I had stock from two lines of Silver Penciled Rocks. One line was excellent but undersized, common trait of that variety. The other had faults but would throw large birds to some degree. I'm going on the fifth year of that outcross, have higher degree of near standard size, still fighting side sprigs, fighting to get the tail lift and more. Yet to get consistent stock and almost ready to throw in the towel on Silver Penciled. I wish I'd not gone all in on that outcross. I should have retained the better line and only dabbled in attempt of outcross on the side. The two lines just didn't niche well. The autosomal red problem from the inferior line was corrected but the niche threw side sprigs to such a degree selection in future generations was limited which loss most of any gain on weight and is keeping the tails low. I also lost the bright yellow on shanks. It fades too much as they age. Will I work it out? Who knows but it certainly hasn't been easy. Things can go wrong as easily as they go right.

Outcrossing a line is a gamble. It could only take three generations to get them back right or it can take a decade. I ruined a wonderful line in attempt to get it to standard weight.

 

[Cattle dog Mom]

Hatchability and Vitality are what is affected when close breeding occurs for too long. How long that takes has many variables. One example would be Good Shepherd Bared Rocks. A closed flock for over 50 years. It has hatchability problems.

Fred's Hens took that solid line and outcrossed to a line from Maine. His result worked out well after three years of hatching many and breeding very few. The two lines niched well but could just as easily not. In that it still took rigorous work for three generations. It was a needed outcross to restore vitality then needed close mating and back crossing to limit the gene pool to produce more consistancy. A few other breeders in the past have successfully outcrossed to the Shepherd line with a lot of work. It's a solid line that was in need of diversity after many decades of closed flock in known location and those birds were originally from a single line (one source). Hatchability was the reason for those outcrosses.

I had stock from two lines of Silver Penciled Rocks. One line was excellent but undersized, common trait of that variety. The other had faults but would throw large birds to some degree. I'm going on the fifth year of that outcross, have higher degree of near standard size, still fighting side sprigs, fighting to get the tail lift and more. Yet to get consistent stock and almost ready to throw in the towel on Silver Penciled. I wish I'd not gone all in on that outcross. I should have retained the better line and only dabbled in attempt of outcross on the side. The two lines just didn't niche well. The autosomal red problem from the inferior line was corrected but the niche threw side sprigs to such a degree selection in future generations was limited which loss most of any gain on weight and is keeping the tails low. I also lost the bright yellow on shanks. It fades too much as they age. Will I work it out? Who knows but it certainly hasn't been easy. Things can go wrong as easily as they go right.

Outcrossing a line is a gamble. It could only take three generations to get them back right or it can take a decade. I ruined a wonderful line in attempt to get it to standard weight.

Besides fertility and vitality, is size (as in loosing size over time) also often effected with highly inbred birds? ( I know it can be an issue in come other species.)

 

[HaikuHeritageFarm]

Besides fertility and vitality, is size (as in loosing size over time) also often effected with highly inbred birds? ( I know it can be an issue in come other species.)

I haven't seen anything that suggests this to be true. If maintaining size isn't a priority and you stop actively selecting for it, it's easy lose and can be tough to get back if you have a tight line that is consistently throwing small birds due to poor selection in the past.

 

[edgarmongold]

I believe by from an established strain and when you mess up because you will as you learn to breed the strain from same source and select one that is strong in the area you are weak in.
Chickens are not dogs cats horses or goats etc forget everything you learned from breeding them.
It’s a whole different world of breeding.
Having to get genetic diversity is just another way of saying I messed up in breeding pens.
I inbreed constantly because that’s how to get recessive traits to show up to be eliminated.
My line New Hampshire Bantam from 1980 revolved around #255 he was main breeder for 9.5 years until a dog killed him.
Offspring down to great great great grandchildren for 9.5 years.
Never lost size fertility egg production fast feathering or maturity.
Here it’s 2021 and still inbreeding his offspring.
Pen# 6 best pairing half brother sister.
They are livestock first and foremost and treated that way.
One thing about inbreeding if you mess up and I always do that is when 4+ year old hens and cocks come in handy.
I always maintain everyone sets up their own breeding program.
Mainly enjoy your chickens

 

[HaikuHeritageFarm]

I believe by from an established strain and when you mess up because you will as you learn to breed the strain from same source and select one that is strong in the area you are weak in.
Chickens are not dogs cats horses or goats etc forget everything you learned from breeding them.
It’s a whole different world of breeding.
Having to get genetic diversity is just another way of saying I messed up in breeding pens.
I inbreed constantly because that’s how to get recessive traits to show up to be eliminated.
My line New Hampshire Bantam from 1980 revolved around #255 he was main breeder for 9.5 years until a dog killed him.
Offspring down to great great great grandchildren for 9.5 years.
Never lost size fertility egg production fast feathering or maturity.
Here it’s 2021 and still inbreeding his offspring.
Pen# 6 best pairing half brother sister.
They are livestock first and foremost and treated that way.
One thing about inbreeding if you mess up and I always do that is when 4+ year old hens and cocks come in handy.
I always maintain everyone sets up their own breeding program.
Mainly enjoy your chickens

All of this is so important! I don't know where it's come from or why it's so pervasive, but the notion that crossing lines and bringing in "new blood" arbitrarily is somehow a good thing or will improve your stock is absolutely false if you're starting with decent stock.

Inbreeding is essential to producing quality poultry.

 

[Amer]

I agree you should acquire the birds from one source. Crossing two lines can cause you a world of trouble. Do your homework, find the best stock you can source or afford. That's the best start.

X2, I would use birds from one source. The only reason to have genetic diversity is if the breed is very rare and stock from all bases is poor and not meeting the SOP.