Calling all Penedesencas Owners/Breeders

[CatalanState]

First eggs of my Partridge's!

 

[karenerwin]

What are your breeding pair eating?
Is the chick vigorous?

Regular egg layer feed plus whatever they find when they free range. Occasionally I toss them some kale from the garden and on the really cold nights I tossed them a small bit of cracked corn.
Yes, it is very vigorous. 1 more egg hatched out Monday morning, it's coloring is more like what it is suppose to be. 2 other eggs were rocking last night (Sunday) but I don't see any external pips.

Don't toss the eggs out. Do an eggtopsy on them and let us know what is inside the eggs.

I will do an eggtopsy on them either Tuesday or Wednesday & include photos. In the past the ones that haven't hatched have mostly been well formed or barely formed at all. Not much in between. We'll see what I find this time.

 

[ChickenCanoe]

First eggs of my Partridge's!

They look very nice.
Do you know any farmers that raise the Classic Black?
(i.e. very dark eggs and white earlobes)

Regular egg layer feed plus whatever they find when they free range. Occasionally I toss them some kale from the garden and on the really cold nights I tossed them a small bit of cracked corn.
Yes, it is very vigorous. 1 more egg hatched out Monday morning, it's coloring is more like what it is suppose to be. 2 other eggs were rocking last night (Sunday) but I don't see any external pips.

I will do an eggtopsy on them either Tuesday or Wednesday & include photos. In the past the ones that haven't hatched have mostly been well formed or barely formed at all. Not much in between. We'll see what I find this time.

I hope you get a few more.
Regular layer feed is adequate for layers' body maintenance and egg production, however, I truly believe it is inadequate for breeders and good hatchability. There's a reason they make breeder rations.
Add to that, we are working with a breed that has an extremely small gene pool so they need all the help they can get to increase vigor and hatchability.

I think a bit more protein (1-2% more) and higher vitamin and mineral content will fortify the eggs for the embryo vitality.

I change feeds from time to time depending on what I can obtain. But about 70% of what they get is fermented. I have bulk feeders in most buildings but I give them fermented feed every morning. That makes the amino acids more bioavailable and can enhance B complex vitamins. More importantly, it binds up the fines so they aren't lost at the bottom of a feeder. Feeds are a blend of ground grains/legumes. Everything else in there are added as powders (vitamins and minerals) and downstream fat. By binding those goodies up in the ferment, it raises the percentages of added vitamins and mineral in what is consumed.
I also blend in some ground kelp to fortify the feed with micro nutrients that aren't in regular feed. These haven't been studied in poultry nutritional programs but there may be as many as 40 micronutrients that may be beneficial.
I give them meat and/or fish a couple times a week to enhance the essential amino acids.
During breeding season, once or twice a week I add Nutri-Drench to the water to assure the eggs are fortified.
Nutritional deficiencies can be a major cause of hatchability problems.
http://ufdc.ufl.edu/UF00008570/00001/3j

Another issue is that roosters shouldn't be getting layer feed. Over 2.5% calcium can cause sperm motility issues as well as damaging the kidneys.
They're not building egg shells every day so they don't need it.

 

[ronott1]

They look very nice.
Do you know any farmers that raise the Classic Black?
(i.e. very dark eggs and white earlobes)

I hope you get a few more.
Regular layer feed is adequate for layers' body maintenance and egg production, however, I truly believe it is inadequate for breeders and good hatchability. There's a reason they make breeder rations.
Add to that, we are working with a breed that has an extremely small gene pool so they need all the help they can get to increase vigor and hatchability.

I think a bit more protein (1-2% more) and higher vitamin and mineral content will fortify the eggs for the embryo vitality.

I change feeds from time to time depending on what I can obtain. But about 70% of what they get is fermented. I have bulk feeders in most buildings but I give them fermented feed every morning. That makes the amino acids more bioavailable and can enhance B complex vitamins. More importantly, it binds up the fines so they aren't lost at the bottom of a feeder. Feeds are a blend of ground grains/legumes. Everything else in there are added as powders (vitamins and minerals) and downstream fat. By binding those goodies up in the ferment, it raises the percentages of added vitamins and mineral in what is consumed.
I also blend in some ground kelp to fortify the feed with micro nutrients that aren't in regular feed. These haven't been studied in poultry nutritional programs but there may be as many as 40 micronutrients that may be beneficial.
I give them meat and/or fish a couple times a week to enhance the essential amino acids.
Once or twice a week, I add Nutri-Drench to the water to assure the eggs are fortified.
Nutritional deficiencies can be a major cause of hatchability problems.
http://ufdc.ufl.edu/UF00008570/00001/3j

Another issue is that roosters shouldn't be getting layer feed. Over 2.5% calcium can cause sperm motility issues.

This is great information! On the Easter hatch a long thread a chick hatched with wry neck. There was a post about using supplements. I posted that along with better nutrition, the breeder flock should be checked and treated for worms. Sadly, the response was that only one of the chicks had wry neck.....

Be careful though. I have be en given grief over the feeding roosters layer feed. The calcium can also hurt their kidneys and cause them to die early. The usual response is that they have been doing it for years and to mind my on business...even though their roosters seem to die at about two years old....

 

[ChickenCanoe]

This is great information! On the Easter hatch a long thread a chick hatched with wry neck. There was a post about using supplements. I posted that along with better nutrition, the breeder flock should be checked and treated for worms. Sadly, the response was that only one of the chicks had wry neck.....

Be careful though. I have be en given grief over the feeding roosters layer feed. The calcium can also hurt their kidneys and cause them to die early. The usual response is that they have been doing it for years and to mind my on business...even though their roosters seem to die at about two years old....

Oh well.
I agree about roosters ( and all non-layers) and the kidney issue. I usually mention that but in this case, Karen's issue is with hatchability so I thought I'd mention calcium's effect on sperm.
I'll see if I can find them but I read 2 research papers regarding this. One noted that sperm motility can be enhanced with up to about 2.4% calcium but over that, it will have a negative effect.
I get that narrative about it never affected their roosters. However, as you say, people never get a necropsy when they lose a rooster so don't know it may have been kidney damage.
People expect the rooster to be sick if it is a problem. That isn't the way kidney damage works though. In many cases, there won't be any appearance of a problem as long as there are 2 or the 6 kidney segments still functioning. If one of the remaining two fails, death can come within 24 hours.

 

[karenerwin]

@ronott1 @ChickenCanoe
I did the eggtopsies this evening. I had written the collection date on each egg so that is how I will be referring to each one. I set a total of 8 eggs. They are dated 2/16; 2/17; 2/18; 2/21; 2/22; 2/24; 2/25 & 2/29. I'm including some of the pictures. I can PM you the rest if you would like me to.
The 2 that hatched are 2/22 & 2/18. 2/22 hatched Friday night/Saturday morning. This is the one whose coloring is not correct for a black Penedesenca. 2/18 hatched Sunday night, but was not able to get all the way out by Monday morning. I finished the zip (about 1/2) and loosened a side and then put it back in the incubator. When I got home from work it was out and still resting. Coloring is appropriate for a black Penedesenca.

2/16; 2/17 & 2/29 were all very early quitters ( 1 maybe not fertilized?)

2/25 fully formed chick, no external or internal pip, head still tucked down by feet

2/24 fully formed chick, no external pip, yes internal pip into air space, some gelatinous stuff & veining

2/21 fully formed chick, no external or internal pip, air space not in correct place (maybe split air space?) Egg shell very full of chick. No room for drawdown. Head untucked but beak not near air space(s). Air space seemed to be near pointy end and also on an upper side, but not a very large air space in either place.
all 8 eggs

2/25 after I untucked head slightly


2/25 after I removed top of egg shell




above & below 2 different sides of 2/25


2/24


2/24 internal pip






2/24 trying to show the gelatinous stuff & veining inside shell

I'll put more photos in next post

 

[karenerwin]

More eggtopsy photos @ronott1 @ChickenCanoe
2/21 I peeled off the outer shell, but here I'm trying to show the veining that is inside the membrane.


2/21 top of shell removed. Not really any air space here.


back side of 2/21

2/21 My thumb is pointing to the beak

2/29

2/29

2/16

2/17


None of these had a bad odor. I have pictures of these after I poured them out, but I didn't know if I should post them here. I can PM them to you, if you would like.

Let me know if you are able to glean any insight from these images.
Oh, the 2 that hatched, had very clean & pretty clean egg shells inside.

Thanks, Karen

 

[ChickenCanoe]

More eggtopsy photos @ronott1 @ChickenCanoe
2/21 I peeled off the outer shell, but here I'm trying to show the veining that is inside the membrane.


2/21 top of shell removed. Not really any air space here.


back side of 2/21

2/21 My thumb is pointing to the beak

2/29

2/29

2/16

2/17


None of these had a bad odor. I have pictures of these after I poured them out, but I didn't know if I should post them here. I can PM them to you, if you would like.

Let me know if you are able to glean any insight from these images.
Oh, the 2 that hatched, had very clean & pretty clean egg shells inside.

Thanks, Karen

A protracted hatch and chicks failing at different days could be from so many things. Do you rotate the eggs around the incubator throughout? There are always warm and cool spots in those incubators. If one is sitting in a cool area, it could hatch a couple days later than one in the hot zone.
Tell me about your turning. By hand? How frequently?

This may give you some clues.
Pages 2 and 3 give most of the causes of eggs that failed at your days.
http://ufdc.ufl.edu/UF00008570/00001/3j

 

[ronott1]

@ronott1 @ChickenCanoe
I did the eggtopsies this evening. I had written the collection date on each egg so that is how I will be referring to each one. I set a total of 8 eggs. They are dated 2/16; 2/17; 2/18; 2/21; 2/22; 2/24; 2/25 & 2/29. I'm including some of the pictures. I can PM you the rest if you would like me to.
The 2 that hatched are 2/22 & 2/18. 2/22 hatched Friday night/Saturday morning. This is the one whose coloring is not correct for a black Penedesenca. 2/18 hatched Sunday night, but was not able to get all the way out by Monday morning. I finished the zip (about 1/2) and loosened a side and then put it back in the incubator. When I got home from work it was out and still resting. Coloring is appropriate for a black Penedesenca.

2/16; 2/17 & 2/29 were all very early quitters ( 1 maybe not fertilized?)

2/25 fully formed chick, no external or internal pip, head still tucked down by feet

2/24 fully formed chick, no external pip, yes internal pip into air space, some gelatinous stuff & veining

2/21 fully formed chick, no external or internal pip, air space not in correct place (maybe split air space?) Egg shell very full of chick. No room for drawdown. Head untucked but beak not near air space(s). Air space seemed to be near pointy end and also on an upper side, but not a very large air space in either place.
all 8 eggs

2/25 after I untucked head slightly


2/25 after I removed top of egg shell




above & below 2 different sides of 2/25


2/24


2/24 internal pip






2/24 trying to show the gelatinous stuff & veining inside shell

I'll put more photos in next post

Thank you for the photos!

I do not remember what your incubator is. There could be a temperature problem like Guy described. It is very possible that both un even temperatures along with temperature swings from day to night might have caused this. Those chicks were very close to hatching!

Work on stabilizing the temps in the room with the incubator
Add heat syncs to the incubator, like stones or bags of water. This will help even out the temperatures during the day
move the eggs around the incubator every two days
Use a very accurate thermometer to verify the temperature in the incubator
use the cool down cycle from day 8 to 18
Consider using misting along with the cool down cycle

Worm the breeder flock and add some supplements. Feed them grower feed and have free choice calcium out for the hens to eat. Rooster booster and calf mana are good supplements to use.

Feed them kale every couple of days.

I hope this helps!

 

[karenerwin]

A protracted hatch and chicks failing at different days could be from so many things. Do you rotate the eggs around the incubator throughout? There are always warm and cool spots in those incubators. If one is sitting in a cool area, it could hatch a couple days later than one in the hot zone.
Tell me about your turning. By hand? How frequently?

This may give you some clues.
Pages 2 and 3 give most of the causes of eggs that failed at your days.
http://ufdc.ufl.edu/UF00008570/00001/3j

Thank you for the photos!

I do not remember what your incubator is. There could be a temperature problem like Guy described. It is very possible that both un even temperatures along with temperature swings from day to night might have caused this. Those chicks were very close to hatching!

Work on stabilizing the temps in the room with the incubator
Add heat syncs to the incubator, like stones or bags of water. This will help even out the temperatures during the day
move the eggs around the incubator every two days
Use a very accurate thermometer to verify the temperature in the incubator
use the cool down cycle from day 8 to 18
Consider using misting along with the cool down cycle

Worm the breeder flock and add some supplements. Feed them grower feed and have free choice calcium out for the hens to eat. Rooster booster and calf mana are good supplements to use.

Feed them kale every couple of days.

I hope this helps!

Thanks for the responses. I had moved the incubator downstairs to an unused bedroom where the temperatures would be more stable. I did not rotate the position of the eggs in the incubator or use the cool down cycle. I will definitely try those strategies next time. I can also try the heat syncs. I have an automatic turner, so I do not turn by hand. I believe that it rotates the eggs 3 times a day, but I would have to go find the directions to be sure. I have recently been giving them kale from my garden, but wasn't during the time frame that I collected the eggs. I am thinking that grower feed is the same as Broiler feed. Is that correct or not?