can adult chickens be vaccinated for marek's?

[estamets]

I realize this has been mentioned previously here, but it might bear repeating that the vaccine available to the general public is not the same as the one the hatcheries give and not as effective. This is per the state vet in Georgia as well as the vet at the University of Kentucky. The "good" one must be stored at almost -200*, which we simply can't do. The Univ of Ky guy was even a bit scornful about the effectiveness of the consumer's vaccine. I'm still vacillating on this vaccination thing, personally. I mean if it hides the disease of an infected bird by keeping it alive and preventing tumors, you still have an MD positive bird. Still wrapping my head around this one. Yeah, I know, we've been around and around on the subject, but it still bugs me. Have to get it straight in my head. If I can't keep it out of my flock no matter what I do, I guess might have to start keeping a species that is not as susceptible to it. It's getting too complicated. I can't do complicated. And I haven't even had to deal with it yet, but it's already making me nuts just talking about it. Karen knows, right, Karen?

Someone mentioned TSC chicks being the cause of Marek's in their flock. I'd say if they truly were the cause of the Marek's in their flock, it was contracted from the way TSC handles the chicks and customers go in and out and sometimes were able to handle them, not the hatchery to blame. Marek's is not passed through the egg so if the chicks hatch and are mailed out to the feed stores immediately, as they are, I'd say it is not the hatchery but something that happened at TSC or later on. JMHO.

I hear you. If you keep hearty birds, and they never go symptomatic, at least you won't lose any. It can still be in your flock, though, even if it's not fatal. The best course is to only take day olds or eggs, and keep a completely closed flock otherwise. It can still blow in on the wind, but until it's a problem, you can depend on preventative measures. The question, as always, is about your personal risk tolerance: if Marek's blows in across ten miles, and you lose half your birds because you didn't vaccinate, are you okay with that?
I refrain from judging anyone else's practices- chicken keeping is very personal- but I've got Marek's in my flock now, so I will always vaccinate. My girls are layers and pets. If I were breeding I might choose a different path.

 

[speckledhen]

I hear you. If you keep hearty birds, and they never go symptomatic, at least you won't lose any. It can still be in your flock, though, even if it's not fatal. The best course is to only take day olds or eggs, and keep a completely closed flock otherwise. It can still blow in on the wind, but until it's a problem, you can depend on preventative measures. The question, as always, is about your personal risk tolerance: if Marek's blows in across ten miles, and you lose half your birds because you didn't vaccinate, are you okay with that?
I refrain from judging anyone else's practices- chicken keeping is very personal- but I've got Marek's in my flock now, so I will always vaccinate. My girls are layers and pets. If I were breeding I might choose a different path.

I'm only trying to make these decisions for myself, not for anyone else. This is why my dialogue in these threads, not to tell others what to do, but to decide what I must do for my own flock. I wouldn't presume to decide for someone else, other than to say if someone has had a Marek's positive bird in the flock, they are unethical to sell birds at all, unless they inform the future owner of the birds that they come from a flock that has had deaths from, or tested positive for, Mareks.

To answer your question, I ask myself if it's okay to lose half my birds because I didn't vaccinate. My personal belief is that I would be asking myself the wrong question. The question, for me, is more along the lines of do I want Marek's postive birds in my flock at all, not if I'm okay with losing them. I don't think I do, but for now, it's only hypothetical. And mine are layers and pets as yours are. Hobbyist, breeder, I want healthy birds. It would take all the enjoyment out of it to have Marek's here. Again, that's for me.

 

[seminolewind]

I realize this has been mentioned previously here, but it might bear repeating that the vaccine available to the general public is not the same as the one the hatcheries give and not as effective. This is per the state vet in Georgia as well as the vet at the University of Kentucky. The "good" one must be stored at almost -200*, which we simply can't do. The Univ of Ky guy was even a bit scornful about the effectiveness of the consumer's vaccine. I'm still vacillating on this vaccination thing, personally. I mean if it hides the disease of an infected bird by keeping it alive and preventing tumors, you still have an MD positive bird. Still wrapping my head around this one. Yeah, I know, we've been around and around on the subject, but it still bugs me. Have to get it straight in my head. If I can't keep it out of my flock no matter what I do, I guess might have to start keeping a species that is not as susceptible to it. It's getting too complicated. I can't do complicated. And I haven't even had to deal with it yet, but it's already making me nuts just talking about it. Karen knows, right, Karen?

Someone mentioned TSC chicks being the cause of Marek's in their flock. I'd say if they truly were the cause of the Marek's in their flock, it was contracted from the way TSC handles the chicks and customers go in and out and sometimes were able to handle them, not the hatchery to blame. Marek's is not passed through the egg so if the chicks hatch and are mailed out to the feed stores immediately, as they are, I'd say it is not the hatchery but something that happened at TSC or later on. JMHO.

Yes! I know how you are, LOL. But it may not be a bad thing . Even tho we get to use the 'commoner's' vaccine, like Estamets said, twice 10 days apart is probably good, like a booster. And with our "common" vaccine, I would quarantine longer. It says 3 weeks-I would do 8-12 weeks. Since the vaccine is weaker, we give it more time and a booster.

Most vaccine failures are either a storage error or a injection error. Not all.
Many don't seem to realize that the different strains are virulent, very virulent, very very virulent, etc. I do think the booster and extra quarantine time may make up for the more virulent strains. I am not a vet!!!!

I think that there are really easy ways of getting Marek's home, and real hard if not impossible ways to get it.

At the top of my list would be buying chickens at auction, swaps, rescues, adoptions, even breeders. That would be the easy way to pick up Marek's

At the bottom of my list, the hardest ways for Marek's to find your home is by hatching all your chicks,or by getting day old hatchery chicks sent to your home, and being careful not to go to the feed stores with your chicken shoes.

Day olds from a hatchery to a feed store I think is a lower risk. The wind and the wild birds I think are lower risk -unless your neighbor is Frank Perdue, or someone nearby has chickens.

I don't know how a breeder or seller deals with all this.

The only way to deal with it now is to vaccinate your chicks or buy vaccinated hatchery chicks. No one out there is worrying about your chickens except for you.

I had 2 batches of chicks hatch 3 weeks apart. 8 chicks the first hatch, and 5 on the 2nd hatch. Out of the first 8 chicks, I crippled one with the vaccine, 3 dropped dead of enteritis, 2 died of an eye infection. I have 2 left and one of them had paralysis for a few weeks. BUT THEY WERE ALL VACCINATED TWICE, THREE WEEKS APART!!!

The group of five- 2 got paralysis at 6-8 months old, and one recently just flipped over and died. So I have 1 rooster and 1 hen left from that batch BUT THEY WERE ALL VACCINATED!!!!

I had 2 singletons hatched before that. Both cost me a whole vaccine. One of them started to get that eye infection and she lived in my bedroom for a month with meds, and did well after that.

I have 9 vaccinated hatchery chicks from March that are all doing fine - no problems.

Right now I think I've lost a few to suppressed immune system (thank you Marek's). They were 4-7 years old.

So I'm nuts because no matter what you do, life is going to sneak up and bite you in the ***** anyway. I wouldn't judge anyone else either on whether they vaccinate or not. Everyone has their reasons.

 

[speckledhen]

Quote: Ack! That is horrible for a control freak like me! LOL.

I agree on the vaccinations. Everyone has their reasons and God love 'em for trying to slog through this mountain of information and non-information, the maybes, the might-be's, etc. Enough to drive a person to drink. Whatever decision anyone makes, I can see both sides. I just can't figure out which side I'm on!

 

[Kidhenduckohmy]

Oh my goodness!! I am just more cunfused!
I have bought chickens from all over, feedmill, farm, friends... I have no idea if they were vaccinated. Now I just had two baby chicks and I do not know what to do, or if it is too late to do anything.
And I was thinking of getting more expensive, rarer birds. And have baby chicks with them.
How stressful!

 

[seminolewind]

It's probably too late to do anything now. Be sure to vaccinate any new chicks on day one or at the hatchery.

If your flock is not symptomatic, I would be very careful in the future of where you buy chicks. I would keep those 2 new chicks quarantined for 6 weeks or more if you can.

 

[Kasia]

Wow, this thread is old. But I see it's been kept going as well, so even though there hasn't been any recent activity, I'll share my story and hopefully get advice.

I've read the entire thread, and unlike most of you, I don't have a farm, or a backyard flock that I use for meat or eggs. I run Kasia's Ark Bird Rescue and most of the rescues I get regularly are chickens. I don't know their backgrounds, where they come from, if they've been vaccinated or anything. They vary in age from 3 days (if the feed store calls about a new shipment of chicks and one is sick) to adult chickens that someone found in the middle of the road in New Orleans. My chickens are pet and I have several pet chickens indoors in chicken diapers, so I'm on the other end of the extreme so to speak. I also take my chickens (and ducks) to nursing homes, schools, and other venues with my Wings & Feathers Outreach Program. In the city, most kids and adults haven't seen a live chicken, and the Alzheimer's patients love having a very spoiled and friendly chicken in their laps when they sit there day after day with nothing much to do.

I've lost 3 of my beloved chickens to Marek's, and have a 4th that's been symptomatic for weeks now, and I have been tube feeding her for several weeks now. She's not getting worse and is starting to stand up a little more each day. My first case of Marek's was with my silkie the October before last. Indoor chicken, wakes up one morning unable to walk. No interest in eating. I made an appointment with my vet, and Clarice died at the vet on the table by 4:15 that afternoon. I had them do a necropsy and it was Marek's. Second case was last March, some of you may have heard the story or even seen the Facebook page of Nan The Chick, the baby chick whose legs were deliberately broken by two young boys on purpose with a skateboard. Nan's story made headlines around the country and even as far as the UK! (look it up, the page is still there, but you'll have to go from the bottom of the page up) I lost Nan last year the day he got his first round of Chemo for Marek's induced lymphoma.

Fast forward to this year, I've moved out of New Orleans and am living in Ponchatoula. My Polish mix hen started with the one leg pointing forward just like Nan. I knew immediately it was Marek's and the vet confirmed it. I tube fed her for weeks and gave her all the supplements everyone recommended (St. John's Wort, Sun Chlorella, Spirulina, Hypericum, Booster, Vetri Science, etc.) She died several weeks ago peacefully in her sleep after I held her for several hours and told her she could go because I saw she was ready.

Now I have Phyllis, an 8 month old Polish and she started with the leg pointing forward. I have her isolated and she's not worsening, so maybe I'm going to see her pull through this.

After discussing vaccinating my flock with my vet for over a YEAR, I've decided to go ahead and do it. I went ahead and got the vaccine. I have two broody serama hens sitting on fake eggs and just found out from a friend of mine that his serama eggs hatched. I'm bringing home baby seramas tonight to put under them. I am vaccinating me flock of 29 chickens of various ages TONIGHT, starting with the baby I bring home. I have 9 indoor chickens, and 20 in the outdoor shed I've made into a coop. I've weighed the pros and cons, I will vaccinate Phyllis and all the adult chickens I've rescued from different places. One adult rooster visits with his family and 4 vaccinated hens, and they THINK he was vaccinated in their son's school where the chicks were hatched. I was worried about vaccinating an already possibly vaccinated chicken,

But after hundreds and hundreds of $$$ spend on vet bills, the $19 vaccine is worth it, and no, I'm not dividing it all up. I get chickens coming in all the time, and I don't mind having a few vials to use on just 2 or 3 chickens at a time. I'm a one woman rescue doing this from home, have a part time job and run mainly on donations, but most people don't donate, so I do this mainly out of my own pocket. Still, to me, vaccinating is worth the risk of all the possibilities out there. It can't hurt.

The reason I'm posting this is because although I've given chickens shots (and people, since I work at a Medical Clinic) of antibiotics over the years, I'm terrified of vaccinating a tiny serama chick in the back of the neck. I was already told this baby chick is tiny for even a serama. Won't that much liquid under the skin in the back on the neck hurt it somehow? I know I sound silly to some, but I don't want to sever the spinal cord or kill this baby because I've never vaccinated baby chicks. It looks easy online, but when it's your first time, you do get a little nervous. Any advice would be much appreciated. I'm doing this TONIGHT.

 

[seminolewind]

I know how you feel about the shots. I did hit the spine once and that one was arching over backwards, and I had to euthanize it. I did give a few batches of the shot in the thigh just under the skin. They may have to be quarantined longer because the vaccine might take longer to grow protection if shot in the thigh.

I know you're doing a good thing there with a rescue, but if you have one bird with Marek's you can assume all of them are exposed, and some of them will die. There's no way around it if you take strange chickens in.

The 0.2 ml of a vaccine shot is really nothing. And the needle only has to go in a bit, not all the way.

 

[Kasia]

I know how you feel about the shots. I did hit the spine once and that one was arching over backwards, and I had to euthanize it. I did give a few batches of the shot in the thigh just under the skin. They may have to be quarantined longer because the vaccine might take longer to grow protection if shot in the thigh.

I know you're doing a good thing there with a rescue, but if you have one bird with Marek's you can assume all of them are exposed, and some of them will die. There's no way around it if you take strange chickens in.

The 0.2 ml of a vaccine shot is really nothing. And the needle only has to go in a bit, not all the way.

Thank you! I did it. I got a few packs of insulin syringes with very short needles from work (I work at a medical clinic) and picked up my one baby serama and a silkie hen from my friend. I vaccinated all 33 of my chickens. I was really nervous with the baby since it's so tiny, but I did the baby first. The rest of the chickens were easy and they didn't flinch. I'll order a couple more vials to keep on hand for any new chickens that come in. I'm glad I did it and my avian vet agreed that since I can't exactly keep a closed flock, it's best to vaccinate all, regardless of age, since I have nothing to lose at this point. I don't breed and I don't sell or adopt out my birds.

 

[seminolewind]

Quote: