can adult chickens be vaccinated for marek's?

[Arielle]

Just quickly-- I am a bit fan of vaccinations. In this day and age of hightech vaccines, most vaccines can be made quickly and safely with few side effects.

My understanding of the Mereck vaccine is that the bird can still get the disease but not the tumors. So, perhaps that is what you are alluding to SeminoleWInd; the second point, that Icannot confirm but is the point of the vaccine , is that when exposed the body has the antibodies to fight off the disease and stop it from killing the chicken. I do not know the effectiveness rate. No vaccine is 100% effective--that's why here in MA dogs vaccinated twice once year apart can then go 3 years before the next booster. AND the whooping cough vaccine is now failing; people need to be reboostered to fight this new and growing outbreak. NO one is talking about it; the avian flu scared the pants off everyone but how many have the whooping cough because a few people objected to getting vaccinated; now our whole population could be at risk. I say could because I have not heard one way or another from a reliable source. Perhaps a bird could infect another during this time of fighting off the disease, perhaps the transmissin rate is minimal, perhaps we need info from a higher power. LOL

Lots of good questions. In general, I really like the vaccination route; need a vet to find out rate of effectiveness and risk during disease exposure.

 

[rockinpaints]

Morning! Yes you are correct. It is my understanding that chickens can still get Marek's disease they just will not develop the malignant tumors. Marek's vaccine was actually the first cancer vaccine (but for poultry of course). A lot of unvaccinated chickens will die early in adulthood without other symptoms from the cancer form of Marek's. Generally you will not even know why the died (unless you were to have a necropsy done).

But I am not familiar of a vaccine that uses chickens Mareks to make the vaccine, any idea what company that would be?

The company we have our chickens processed through (

yes we eat chicken) said they see a fair amount of tumors when they are butchering. She only told me because I had asked that she let me know if they ever find anything strange inside one of our chickens (enlarged heart, liver, underdeveloped kidneys, tumors etc...)that are being processed as these birds come from our breeding lines. (they don't generally just tell you, I had to request that information,

). So far

no strange stuff going on inside out chickens

.

Sorry I know it's early for this kind of stuff.....

Walkingonsunshine, The latest stuff I'm reading is that the vaccine "hides" the illness. Like if a breeder vaccinates all the chicks, they will never know if they have Marek's.

Another thing I've been reading about is that the Turkey-Marek's vaccine can't give a chick Marek's. But some use a live vaccine from chicken virus that's been altered. Problem is similar to humans getting a Polio shot, they can possibly give someone polio within 7 days of the shot.
So they are researching if that is possible with chicken-based Marek's virus exposing chicks within a few days.
DISCLAIMER:::: I am reading research. I am NOT reading FACT. Do not take this info as fact.

The problem of Marek's used to be a hatchery or a commercial facility problem.. In the 70's , Marek's wiped out 60% of poultry for public sale. Since then, Commercial poultry growers have gotten things under control (I think 3% losses), meanwhile, backyarders have not been practicing ways to keep Marek's out of their flocks. Now the problem is with the backyard/small flock chicken owners. A big problem.

 

[Arielle]

Usually the vaccine companies have two ways to create vaccines. One is to use a related virus like turkey merecks to invoke the chickens to have antibioties from the chicken merecks, or second, modify the chicken based microbe do a point that it cannot cuase full blown disease just an immunological reaction to the proteins.

Long ago someone figures out that the milk maids didn't get small pox; because they got cow pox, with far milder reactions. THen their immune system was ready for the small pox. Makes wonder why so many years passed to delvelop the chicken pox vaccine.


I like that idea of looking for the tumors at slaughter time, sorry, we eat the turkeys so far and plan to eat the chickens. Very proactive. What age do you send your birds? Perhaps young birds have not been exposed yet so do not have tumors yet ( not sure how long from exposure to tumor development).

I expect MErecks can be transmitted via the wild populations; we have plenty of song birds, or did before the chickens; I see less birds now that we have chickens. One turkey hen came to visit earlier this spring for several months, hanging out near my turkeys.

HOw does a small farm protect the turkeys from MErecks because chicken vaccine CANNOT be given to the turkeys. Is there a turkey vaccine? A modified live perhaps.

 

[rockinpaints]

I would have said no to the turkeys getting mareks as the turkey disease used for the mareks vaccine is a herpes virus, however I read recently that there was a devastating outbreak in mareks in turkeys (chicken mareks disease) in other countries (not in the USA). I guess that would be something worth researching for anyone raising turkeys.

At what age the tumors develop......it is my understanding that it has been seen in broilers at butchering and I believe that is probably 8-10 weeks old. We butcher when we decide which roos are not breeding quality...

... probably 4-6 months.

Usually the vaccine companies have two ways to create vaccines. One is to use a related virus like turkey merecks to invoke

 

[WalkingOnSunshine]

Walkingonsunshine, The latest stuff I'm reading is that the vaccine "hides" the illness. Like if a breeder vaccinates all the chicks, they will never know if they have Marek's.

Another thing I've been reading about is that the Turkey-Marek's vaccine can't give a chick Marek's. But some use a live vaccine from chicken virus that's been altered. Problem is similar to humans getting a Polio shot, they can possibly give someone polio within 7 days of the shot.
So they are researching if that is possible with chicken-based Marek's virus exposing chicks within a few days.
DISCLAIMER:::: I am reading research. I am NOT reading FACT. Do not take this info as fact.

The problem of Marek's used to be a hatchery or a commercial facility problem.. In the 70's , Marek's wiped out 60% of poultry for public sale. Since then, Commercial poultry growers have gotten things under control (I think 3% losses), meanwhile, backyarders have not been practicing ways to keep Marek's out of their flocks. Now the problem is with the backyard/small flock chicken owners. A big problem.

Could I have the citation please? When it comes to problems with vaccines, I want to see the primary source. You can blame the Jenny McCarthy's of the world for that.

Also, my avian specialist vet told me that it should be assumed that every single unvaccinated bird is at least a carrier of Marek's, and that my vaccinated birds couldn't pass the disease on.

 

[rockinpaints]

Could I have the citation please? When it comes to problems with vaccines, I want to see the primary source. You can blame the Jenny McCarthy's of the world for that.

Also, my avian specialist vet told me that it should be assumed that every single unvaccinated bird is at least a carrier of Marek's, and that my vaccinated birds couldn't pass the disease on.

That's what I have heard as well

 

[leadwolf1]

Could I have the citation please? When it comes to problems with vaccines, I want to see the primary source. You can blame the Jenny McCarthy's of the world for that.

Also, my avian specialist vet told me that it should be assumed that every single unvaccinated bird is at least a carrier of Marek's, and that my vaccinated birds couldn't pass the disease on.

I don't have the citations to back this up...only that I know that I read it. The reason that they say that every single unvaccinated bird is a carrier is because Marek's is everywhere. That's why they vaccinate as day olds. One of the resources went so far as to say that if your chicken has breathed it has been exposed. However, there has to be sufficient virus in order for the chicken to be a carrier or, infected. If not, there would be no flocks that didn't suffer fatalities. And, there are many that don't. I have been struggling with the last part cause, vaccinated birds can and do come down with the disease. Therefore, they must be shedding the virus. If your flock is Marek's free then, of course, your vaccinated birds wouldn't spread it since there is no active disease present. I have lost enough vaccinated birds to know that they do carry and spread the virus when symptomatic.

 

[WalkingOnSunshine]

I don't have the citations to back this up...only that I know that I read it. The reason that they say that every single unvaccinated bird is a carrier is because Marek's is everywhere. That's why they vaccinate as day olds. One of the resources went so far as to say that if your chicken has breathed it has been exposed. However, there has to be sufficient virus in order for the chicken to be a carrier or, infected. If not, there would be no flocks that didn't suffer fatalities. And, there are many that don't. I have been struggling with the last part cause, vaccinated birds can and do come down with the disease. Therefore, they must be shedding the virus. If your flock is Marek's free then, of course, your vaccinated birds wouldn't spread it since there is no active disease present. I have lost enough vaccinated birds to know that they do carry and spread the virus when symptomatic.

I'm sorry, but "someone told me so" is exactly why there's a case of Polio near me. When you pass along information like this with no citations/primary sources to back it up, you are doing everyone a disservice. All current information from reliable sources--the Merck, for instance, and many peoples' avian vets, says that Mareks is passed very easily, it is a problem for small backyard flocks, vaccination is the ONLY way to keep it out of your flock, and vaccination WILL NOT turn your flock into carriers. In fact, you can mix vaccinated and unvaccinated chicks with no ill effects.

Chicks are mostly NOT vaccinated as day-olds unless they are hatched at a breeder. Chicks hatched at a hatchery are vaccinated in the egg at 18 days embriotic development. You can vaccinate even adult birds, but the later in life you do it the more likely they've already been exposed and the vaccine won't have an effect.

I am assuming that you did lose birds to Mareks, and that you had a necropsy done to confirm. When you lost your birds, how was Mareks confirmed? Lesion inspection, or did they culture? It is very difficult to tell the difference between Mareks and other lesions.

Finally, the vaccine has a 90%+ success rate, but that does leave around 10% of your flock unprotected, even if vaccinated. There are also three different forms of the vaccine, and one form, the vaccine created using turkey antibodies, is less effective on the highly virulent form of Mareks. So, if your birds got the serotype 3 Turkey virus and came into contact with the highly virulent strain, then your flock also had far less immunity than you assumed. This statement "vaccinated birds can and do come down with the disease. Therefore, they must be shedding the virus" isn't logically sound. Vaccinated birds can and do come down with the disease because the vaccine does not confer immunity to 100% of birds. Therefore, a vaccinated bird can come down with the disease because they caught the disease from a diseased animal, not because vaccinated birds are shedding the disease. If you've been to a poultry show or around the chickens at the county fair, you more than likely carried Mareks onto your property. Acute Mareks is primarily a disease of younger birds, so an older bird may have the virus in their system and the owner would never know. The virus can ride on your skin, your clothes, in your hair. Wild birds can carry Mareks onto your property. A vaccinated bird that's been near unvaccinated birds can carry the disease around on their bodies because they've come in contact with disease particles in the air or in floating dander, also--but that is very different than "all vaccinated birds become carriers and spread the disease."

And, since I'm a stickler for citations, here's the Merck http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index.jsp?cfile=htm/bc/203602.htm
and Perdue (University, not company, LOL) https://www.addl.purdue.edu/newsletters/2005/spring/mareks.htm

Other citations are available in PubMed, but most people don't have access.

The information that you are telling people is a common myth. Unfortunately, it's a dangerous one.

 

[leadwolf1]

I do not pass along myths. If you would like me to spend my valuable time finding my references then, I will. However, I have more important things that I am dealing with. Alot of my 'myths' are through dealings with my own flock. I've had two necropsies performed thus far and am heading in this afternoon for another. I am constantly checking and rechecking to make sure that I am still dealing with Marek's. Lost some birds, you ask? I've lost 40+ to Marek's in the last year. I've spent hours and hours not only in research but, also in researching my own birds. I've used several for 'guinea pigs' so that I could understand them better. Most of those myths are from direct observations from my own flock. I would tell you where my necropsies are being performed but, I don't care to give up my location.

I have found through direct research, on my own flock, that what is found in the Merck manual and in other publications is very outdated and is not what is actually happening in real life. The best article that I have found in a long while is as follows:

The Poultry Magazine
Vol 3 Iss 8 Jul/Aug 2012

I am very angry at your suppositions that I do not know what I am talking about and that 'someone told me so'. Where in the world did you read that? This spring, I purchased 9 vaccinated pullets from Ideal. I kept them in isolation for 12 weeks. I have since lost 5 of the 9 and 2 more are showing symptoms. Does that say a 90% effective rate to you? In the above article, it alludes to the fact that Marek's is mutating. The strains are not being covered as they once were by the vaccine.

Please, unless you have walked in my shoes, do not assume to know everything. I have cried for a year over countless losses. I have watched my children do the same. I have just lost two more of my birds. One of which was my precious Patty that is my avatar.

Again, I don't spread myths. I spread information that I have compiled in the last year. If you know of any better research then that which is conducted in an actual flock, please, let me know.

Thank you so much for once again bringing me to tears with your insane accusations. I have talked to many on here that are wiser then you, if that is possible, and they assure me that I am doing a great service for the community. I have also said that I would discontinue trying to help due to posts such as your own. They have asked me to reconsider. I think it is time for another talk.

I would love to know what your experience with Marek's has been that makes you such an expert.

I'm sorry, but "someone told me so" is exactly why there's a case of Polio near me. When you pass along information like this with no citations/primary sources to back it up, you are doing everyone a disservice. All current information from reliable sources--the Merck, for instance, and many peoples' avian vets, says that Mareks is passed very easily, it is a problem for small backyard flocks, vaccination is the ONLY way to keep it out of your flock, and vaccination WILL NOT turn your flock into carriers. In fact, you can mix vaccinated and unvaccinated chicks with no ill effects.

Chicks are mostly NOT vaccinated as day-olds unless they are hatched at a breeder. Chicks hatched at a hatchery are vaccinated in the egg at 18 days embriotic development. You can vaccinate even adult birds, but the later in life you do it the more likely they've already been exposed and the vaccine won't have an effect.

I am assuming that you did lose birds to Mareks, and that you had a necropsy done to confirm. When you lost your birds, how was Mareks confirmed? Lesion inspection, or did they culture? It is very difficult to tell the difference between Mareks and other lesions.

Finally, the vaccine has a 90%+ success rate, but that does leave around 10% of your flock unprotected, even if vaccinated. There are also three different forms of the vaccine, and one form, the vaccine created using turkey antibodies, is less effective on the highly virulent form of Mareks. So, if your birds got the serotype 3 Turkey virus and came into contact with the highly virulent strain, then your flock also had far less immunity than you assumed. This statement "vaccinated birds can and do come down with the disease. Therefore, they must be shedding the virus" isn't logically sound. Vaccinated birds can and do come down with the disease because the vaccine does not confer immunity to 100% of birds. Therefore, a vaccinated bird can come down with the disease because they caught the disease from a diseased animal, not because vaccinated birds are shedding the disease. If you've been to a poultry show or around the chickens at the county fair, you more than likely carried Mareks onto your property. Acute Mareks is primarily a disease of younger birds, so an older bird may have the virus in their system and the owner would never know. The virus can ride on your skin, your clothes, in your hair. Wild birds can carry Mareks onto your property. A vaccinated bird that's been near unvaccinated birds can carry the disease around on their bodies because they've come in contact with disease particles in the air or in floating dander, also--but that is very different than "all vaccinated birds become carriers and spread the disease."

And, since I'm a stickler for citations, here's the Merck http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index.jsp?cfile=htm/bc/203602.htm
and Perdue (University, not company, LOL) https://www.addl.purdue.edu/newsletters/2005/spring/mareks.htm

Other citations are available in PubMed, but most people don't have access.

The information that you are telling people is a common myth. Unfortunately, it's a dangerous one.

 

[WalkingOnSunshine]

I am very angry at your suppositions that I do not know what I am talking about and that 'someone told me so'. Where in the world did you read that? This spring, I purchased 9 vaccinated pullets from Ideal. I kept them in isolation for 12 weeks. I have since lost 5 of the 9 and 2 more are showing symptoms. Does that say a 90% effective rate to you? In the above article, it alludes to the fact that Marek's is mutating. The strains are not being covered as they once were by the vaccine.


Thank you so much for once again bringing me to tears with your insane accusations. I have talked to many on here that are wiser then you, if that is possible, and they assure me that I am doing a great service for the community. I have also said that I would discontinue trying to help due to posts such as your own. They have asked me to reconsider. I think it is time for another talk.

It was certainly not my intention to bring you to tears. However, far from my "accusations" being "insane," I saw a person were passing along information without references that could be very damaging to many people if untrue. I never thought you would do something like that out of malice, and oftentimes people pass along erroneous information "that they read somewhere" with the best of intentions. When I asked you for citations, you stated "I don't have the citations to back this up...only that I know that I read it" (see post 87). In the age of the internet "something that you read" is not a viable source for such important information--thusly I asked for the source.

You also say the article alludes to Marek's mutating, so that not all strains are covered by the vaccine. I would believe that, and it would account for vaccinated birds becoming symptomatic. However, it conflicts directly with your previous assertion that vaccinating with Marek's vaccine causes vaccinated birds to become dangerous to other birds, and that the vaccine itself somehow causes the birds to shed the virus while not developing the full-blown syndrome.

I am sorry that you've had such a difficult year, and lost so many birds. I hope that your local university has gotten involved to see what's going on with your flock, since your experience is so far outside the norm.

As for my credentials, I am a research design specialist who, last year, spent hours in consultation with experts from several universities on the subject of Marek's after a good friend was sold a couple of birds that she was told were vaccinated, but they subsequently developed the disease and she found out the breeder lied about the vaccination. I learned more than I wanted to know about Marek's, but no where did I learn that it was shed by vaccinated birds due to the vaccine. Were this to be true, I'd want to know about it. However, since the plural of anecdote is not data, I want to see the source of the information and see what their methodology is and what their conclusions are.

Again, I certainly did not intend to hurt you and make you cry. As you have rightly pointed out, this is a very important issue and it is worth careful consideration. For me as well as others, careful consideration means asking for primary sources.