can adult chickens be vaccinated for marek's?

[seminolewind]

Just quickly-- I am a bit fan of vaccinations. In this day and age of hightech vaccines, most vaccines can be made quickly and safely with few side effects.

My understanding of the Mereck vaccine is that the bird can still get the disease but not the tumors. So, perhaps that is what you are alluding to SeminoleWInd; the second point, that Icannot confirm but is the point of the vaccine , is that when exposed the body has the antibodies to fight off the disease and stop it from killing the chicken. I do not know the effectiveness rate. No vaccine is 100% effective--that's why here in MA dogs vaccinated twice once year apart can then go 3 years before the next booster. AND the whooping cough vaccine is now failing; people need to be reboostered to fight this new and growing outbreak. NO one is talking about it; the avian flu scared the pants off everyone but how many have the whooping cough because a few people objected to getting vaccinated; now our whole population could be at risk. I say could because I have not heard one way or another from a reliable source. Perhaps a bird could infect another during this time of fighting off the disease, perhaps the transmissin rate is minimal, perhaps we need info from a higher power. LOL

Lots of good questions. In general, I really like the vaccination route; need a vet to find out rate of effectiveness and risk during disease exposure.

Hi Arielle. You're right. The vaccine protects from not getting the tumors. They can still get and carry the virus and spread it. They will only not get the tumors. I'm still trying to figure out how the eye cloudiness and paralysis fit into this-must be little tumors that attack some nerves? I don't know, but the vaccine seems to protect against that as well.

The vaccine is 90% effective-if all things are being perfect: The temp of shipping, correct mixing, correct injection, temp of vaccines, etc.

The hatcheries Do have a better vaccine than we can get. They combine vaccines to get broader coverage.

I always feel that the quarantine after the shot is the longer the better. I do 10-12 weeks. Some do more.
Also, I've heard that although vaccinated birds can still be carriers, they do spread less virulent dander.

If anyone is interested, I can quote out of my reference book that must have about 50 pages of Marek's info.

 

[seminolewind]

Quote: Which part of this is a common myth? I did think this was a more casual discussion of Marek's, not a college paper which includes citations. But if a citation is requested, that's far different than calling someone's statement a myth. I think we should stick to "I've heard" rather than "you're wrong" to keep this disscussion open and informative.

 

[seminolewind]

My most valuable references at this time is from a book called "Diseases of Poultry" Chief Editor, W.M. Saif, 11th Edition. It's got approx 50 pages on Marek's alone, there are hundreds of avian researchers that have contributed. The book sells for a few hundred dollars, but maybe it can be gotten thru your public library.

A few of my other references are at the bottom of my posts.

I have quite a few more, I'd have to backtrack to list them, but I'll attempt it later.

I don't know if I can copy pages from my book-is that allowed?

Leadwolf1 is fortunate in that she has a university that does necropsies on birds only a short drive away. And plenty of her birds have gone there for necropsies. She has found suprising symptoms in the birds that were +for Marek's . Mainly the age, and she can list the other symptoms she's had. 6-12 weeks is common. I've had my oldest being 2 years old, classic symptoms-wasting, paralysis, cloudy eye, paralysis that slowly worked it's way up from legs to wings, to neck. He crowed until it went to his neck. He was happy till he was euthanized. Either the strains are causing more and more symptoms, or the symptoms have not been the classic ones that most people know.

 

[speckledhen]

Here is the link to Dr. Brown's Marek's article for all of you: http://www.firststatevetsupply.com/content/view/17/37/


I have personally interacted with Doc on several occasions and he has been a godsend to me, even a couple of times sending me antibiotics free of charge to treat birds when we couldn't seem to find an effective one (not for anything contagious, mind you-those things, I do not treat).

To clarify, Peter Brown is not a veterinarian, however, he does hold a PhD in Poultry Science, hence does legitimately hold the title of Dr.


I cannot really join in the discussion much. I am no expert on Mareks. I do not have it in my flock. I do not vaccinate for it, never have vaccinated for it or anything else, and have no plans to start. What I do know is that the vaccine does not prevent the disease, only the tumors associated with it, as others have said on this thread.

 

[leadwolf1]

I think by some of your statements that you are confusing myself and seminolewind. You didn't ask me for references. I merely started my comment with a disclaimer in case you wanted one.

I have never illuded to the fact that the vaccine could be dangerous to other chickens. If you read all of my statements, I believe that you will find that to be true. I have asked for opinions on that very subject since I cannot pinpoint where the original infection came from in my flock. I thought that I knew but, now I'm reading things that disagree. I was floored when I read that this could happen. I was distraught thinking that I had brought this on myself by bringing vaccinated chicks in with my nonvaccinated chicks. However, it stands to reason that if that were the case, my vaccinated chicks would be safe. That is far from the truth.

Since I am not the one that made the statements regarding the safety of the vaccine, I cannot provide you with that information. As, I, too, am seeking those same answers.

Right now, my primary source of information is the ongoing research that I am doing within my own flock. I have over 25 years of experience as a research scientist. I am using my own flock to gather the information that no one else can provide me with. Even the poultry specialist at the University is amazed at my losses. I have seen things inside my own flock that blows Merck's out of the water. One of which is the age issue.

I am very passionate about getting the message out that Marek's is in backyard flocks and it is spreading. To me, there must be a reason why I was 'blessed' with this disease.

Please, before you accuse someone of spreading 'rumors', it might be more beneficial to find out where the information has come from. It is never a good idea to jump first and ask questions later. Burying 40+ chickens in a year, all of which I can name and so can my two boys, makes a person very touchy about being accused of spreading falsehoods. When you see my name, know that what I say is something that I have experienced first hand. It is not something that I picked up off of the street. When I don't know, I will preface my comments with that fact...and when I need to ask questions, I will.

I plan on asking what the poultry specialists feels about the possibility of infection starting from vaccinated chicks in with unvaccinated chicks. This is something that I must know.

It was certainly not my intention to bring you to tears. However, far from my "accusations" being "insane," I saw a person were passing along information without references that could be very damaging to many people if untrue. I never thought you would do something like that out of malice, and oftentimes people pass along erroneous information "that they read somewhere" with the best of intentions. When I asked you for citations, you stated "I don't have the citations to back this up...only that I know that I read it" (see post 87). In the age of the internet "something that you read" is not a viable source for such important information--thusly I asked for the source.

You also say the article alludes to Marek's mutating, so that not all strains are covered by the vaccine. I would believe that, and it would account for vaccinated birds becoming symptomatic. However, it conflicts directly with your previous assertion that vaccinating with Marek's vaccine causes vaccinated birds to become dangerous to other birds, and that the vaccine itself somehow causes the birds to shed the virus while not developing the full-blown syndrome.

I am sorry that you've had such a difficult year, and lost so many birds. I hope that your local university has gotten involved to see what's going on with your flock, since your experience is so far outside the norm.

As for my credentials, I am a research design specialist who, last year, spent hours in consultation with experts from several universities on the subject of Marek's after a good friend was sold a couple of birds that she was told were vaccinated, but they subsequently developed the disease and she found out the breeder lied about the vaccination. I learned more than I wanted to know about Marek's, but no where did I learn that it was shed by vaccinated birds due to the vaccine. Were this to be true, I'd want to know about it. However, since the plural of anecdote is not data, I want to see the source of the information and see what their methodology is and what their conclusions are.

Again, I certainly did not intend to hurt you and make you cry. As you have rightly pointed out, this is a very important issue and it is worth careful consideration. For me as well as others, careful consideration means asking for primary sources.

 

[seminolewind]

Here is the link to Dr. Brown's Marek's article for all of you: http://www.firststatevetsupply.com/content/view/17/37/


I have personally interacted with Doc on several occasions and he has been a godsend to me, even a couple of times sending me antibiotics free of charge to treat birds when we couldn't seem to find an effective one (not for anything contagious, mind you-those things, I do not treat).

To clarify, Peter Brown is not a veterinarian, however, he does hold a PhD in Poultry Science, hence does legitimately hold the title of Dr.


I cannot really join in the discussion much. I am no expert on Mareks. I do not have it in my flock. I do not vaccinate for it, never have vaccinated for it or anything else, and have no plans to start. What I do know is that the vaccine does not prevent the disease, only the tumors associated with it, as others have said on this thread.

SpeckledHen, you have been sooo fortunate to be on the Marek's free side. But I've known you to have a closed flock, which is what has saved you. You're very smart. I broke my closed flock with one bird and I have been paying for it for a few years now.

Peter Brown and Merck's are excellent sources for information, but only cover the most classic or common symptoms. But research and personal experience backed by necropsy have shown that there is a vast amount of information out there that is coming to surface presently because more people are sending dead birds out for necropsy.

And you are right, vaccination only prevents the tumors, not the disease , and not the ability to spread it.

 

[seminolewind]

I am truly under the impression that there is a load of new information in the past 10 years or so that has come about by small flock owner's symptoms and necropsy verification. So much that it would be impossible for the public and researchers to interpret all this information the same way. Research findings take years of experiments to back up what info a researcher has.

We should look at this thread as a gathering of what information one has and not discount the information that anyone else has. BYC is the only place so far that has discussions on Marek's, but the reader needs to investigate the statements themselves.

 

[Arielle]

And to think it was my comments on Peter Browns page that started up this discussion again.

I do have to say that I have learned a tremendous amount about the Merecks thru this sharing of information.

In the end, does it matter whether or not a flock is vaccinated?? THis answer seems to be "it depends"

Do the wild birds carry it? I have wild turkeys and wild song birds--do these transmitt to the chickens. IF it is TURkey merecks then in theory the chickens would in effect get vaccinated and be better prepared for chicken merecks. ANd maybe, songbirds et al also have a merecks that is also different than the chicken merecks.

THe vaccines available to small flock owners is probably the same as big flock managers because the dosing bottle is available in 1000 or 2000 dose bottles.

Is the disease state lessened and therefore the mortality of the disease lessened? Is that of value? What is the importance of the tumors? Is that the side effect of the infection which causes the most harm in those chickens that survive, so again the mortality would be lessened.

THere have not been chickens on this property for at least 40 years--should I not vaccinate? If the disease is "everywhere" then vaccinating can be very important to the survival of the flock.

Handling of the vaccine: I bought mine from a reputable source and it arrived in a cooler still cold ; went right in the refrig and stays there. Most vaccines are designed to be fairly stable and in good working order, so to speak, wwith good handling procedures.

Injecting the birds requires some knowledge; Cleanliness, even sterile conditions, injecting the correct dosage. The 14 day quarentine to allow the vaccine to take effect and cover the chick upon exposure is a standard number based on an adequately healthy immune system. At that time the antibodies are in sufficient numbers to ward off an infection.

I read that some people give a second injection. Certainly when Est Nile was of concern, horses vaccinated in the spring were vaccinated in the fall again during an outbreak. Understand that even the finding of ONE infected mosquito brings out all the spraying equipment.

What is the benefit of vaccinating? Vaccination programs can fail. Leadwolf, I'm sorry you have lost so many birds. How did you verify the Merecks disease?? Necropsy or necropsy and cultures?

Who wants to call Peter Brown about the vaccinated chicks being a source of contamination during the first 14 days post vaccination?

 

[ChicKat]

Thanks Speckled Hen for posting the reference to Dr. Brown's Marek's article. I too have spoken with him..and he has been helpful to me.... It does answer the OPs question about what age Marek's vacinatioin can be done.

If memory serves it is Turkey Marek's that is used in the vaccine, and that virus gives chickens immunity. Possibly speckled hen has turkeys near the chickens.

Here is a link to an under-construction page on BYC, if you have fournd some facts, articles or management practices that will help the BYC community, please feel free to edit this page and post for others who may be finding out about Marek's
https://www.backyardchickens.com/a/mareks-disease-fact-site

Thanks.

 

[seminolewind]

Arielle, I think you are correct on your knowledge.
I think if you have a closed flock, (home hatched or day old hatchery chicks) you are safe, like SpeckledHen. If your flock has an unknown status like mine did, my chicks hatched from outside eggs last year all died from Marek's because they were exposed to mine and not vaccinated . .. My own hatched eggs were fine. Vaccinating is the best thing I can do with hatching eggs bought from someone else.

The vaccine is 90% effective, but I wonder now with more different strains if it's less than 90%.

My 2nd injection ones (7) , one got paralysis, and recovered in my bedroom. 5 died from opportunistic infections or Coccidiosis with no symptoms til hours before death. One was not affected.

My single injection ones (5) are all fine.

My single injected one (1) is fine but was sick and got better.

My single injected ones (2), one kept falling asleep at 8 weeks, and one got killed by a hawk but looked fine.

So, I'm not doing 2 injections next time. In fact my next hatch will be from my exposed hens and not vaccinated at all. I had 5 hatched silkies from my exposed hen, and they are all fine, and it's been 2 years.

I don't think turkeys are affected by their Marek's, or kill chickens that live with them. Although wild birds can carry it, I don't know if they can carry enough unless there is exposed chickens near by . And the wind can carry but from how far?

I have never heard of the vaccine contaminating other chickens. The Turkey one can not give a chicken Marek's. It does not cross species. But apparently gives chicks resistance to the tumors. It cannot give them Marek's.

There is research being done on whether the vaccine made from chicken cells can harm non vaccinated chicks the first few days of life. This is RESEARCH.

Vaccinated day olds or vaccinating your own is the best thing one can do. Or having a closed flock.