⠀ Chickens need more protein?

[josie705]

This is not a problem that I have, but it's both a question and observation from other people's protein problems.

If chickens on layer feed need more protein, shouldn't people look for a layer feed with more protein? Why haven't businesses started making layer feed with more protein? To me, it sounds like a plot to get you to buy their supplements.

What are your thoughts on this?

 

[Ridgerunner]

I don’t know what protein level you are talking about. 16% protein in Layer is pretty common, but some members say they can get an 18% protein Layer. I wonder if they are talking about a special feed they get from a mill? I did find one 18% Layer with Google but they quit making that a while back. So I’ll assume you are talking about 16% protein Layer. That’s what I see at Tractor Supply.

My opinion. Layer feed is formulated for the egg laying industry. The hybrid commercial laying hens have relatively small bodies and have been bred to be really efficient at converting feed to eggs. They don’t have big bodies so they don’t need extra protein to maintain those big bodies.

The hybrid commercial layers generally lay Grade A Large eggs relative to body size based on what they eat. Extra protein would be detrimental to those chickens’ health because higher protein would mean the eggs are even larger. The larger eggs could lead to those small-bodied hens being egg bound or maybe cause prolapse.

Feeding high levels of protein can cause a hen to release extra yolks instead of the normal one at a time, especially with those hybrid laying hens. This would lead to more double yolked eggs if the yolks are released at the same time. This could lead to soft-shelled or otherwise less desired eggs if the yolks are released at different times so she lays two eggs that day. The hen’s body normally makes enough materials to create one egg a day. For example, if a hen uses her daily allotment of shell material on her first egg for the day, there isn’t enough shell material left to cover the second egg. If two eggs are in the shell gland at the same time, this can lead to marks on the egg that make them not suitable to go to a supermarket for sell to consumers. Not only does this endanger the hen’s health there isn’t much of a market for these weird eggs even if they don’t break and cause a mess that can contaminate other eggs or be a pain to clean up. Many of the weird eggs they get are sold to bakeries or such places at a reduced cost for use as broken eggs. It’s more profitable if those eggs go to supermarkets.

Layer feed is formulated to provide all they need if Layer is all they eat. When you start feeding treats you upset that balance. That could be protein of any of all the other nutrients they need to maintain health and production. That’s why you often see the recommendation that treats should not be more than 10% of their daily diet. That allows the nutrient levels to remain in the range where they need to be. People like to fixate on protein levels but a balanced diet is about a lot more than just protein.

In my opinion most of our chickens don’t need the extra protein as long as we don’t feed them a lot of low protein treats. The commercial operations for egg and meat production use hybrids especially bred to convert feed to eggs or meat very efficiently and have determined the exact amount of protein and other nutrients they need to maximize production. Overfeeding those hybrids can lead to to an increase in medical problems or other undesirable effects. Underfeeding them can lead to them being less productive.

In general our chickens are not that finely tuned. They can do quite well on less or more protein. They can generally maintain their bodies quite well if they eat a bit less protein, but the eggs may not be quite as large. If they eat a bit more than what is optimum for those laying hybrids their bigger bodies can handle it. They can handle a range of protein levels (along with other nutrients) and do quite well. That’s why the 10% rule-of-thumb on treats. If you feed a low protein treat, that drop is within they acceptable range. If you feed a high protein treat, that increase is within an acceptable range.

There are some exceptions. If you are raising chickens for show, you need to feed them a special diet with extra protein and other stuff. There are weight targets for show chickens that generally require bigger chickens than ours. They handle a lot of that by breeding but then they need to feed to that breeding. If you have always fed a high protein diet to your chickens, their bodies are tuned to that higher protein. If they are used to it, don’t change it, you might cause problems, not just medical but behavioral. Some people claim to resolve behavioral issues by increasing the protein content of their total daily diet. I haven’t seen that but that doesn’t mean it’s not true. We all manage them differently and there are many different possible causes of most behavioral issues. I can certainly see diet as one of those factors.

So, that's my thoughts.

 

[speckledhen]

I feed a 22% layer feed by Tucker Milling called Super Lay. And my "scratch" that is tossed out sparingly in the a.m. or used in an old jar to shake and call them home from free ranging is a 13-grain cock conditioner which has 16% protein by itself, plus its own grit. I do feel that young breeder birds, especially the heritage breeds, tend to need more protein than they are usually fed. If chickens get any scratch at all, or the usual type which is about 8% protein, that effectively lowers the overall protein consumption. So, if you feed the usual 16% layer, plus the 8% scratch every day, they are not getting a full 16% protein, and the more scratch they eat, the lower it goes.


I also appreciate that Tucker Milling has not removed animal protein from their feeds. There's no such thing as a vegetarian chicken. Mine have done well on their feeds for years.


***that said, I do free range my groups on a rotating basis; they are not penned 24/7 so get natural forage as well.

 

[Egghead_Jr]

Back when I used a layer feed Agway sold an 18% layer with marigold added.

A couple percent of protein here or there is nothing to bother about but when you think of 16% being a minimum and what commercial operations use with high feed to egg conversion hybrid birds it doesn't take much thought to realize we backyarders with dual purpose larger birds might do well with more protein. Not to mention we supplement low protein treats that commercial operations do not.

With chicks to layers every year mixed age flocks would do well with 20%. That's what I use, everyone on 20% non medicated starter crumbles when chicks are around and everyone on 20% turkey finisher pellets when youngest birds are large enough. Oyster shell tossed on side for layers. Those with heavy handed with treats could go much more.

 

[donut314]

I find this thread most interesting. I went to a pet swap last weekend and met a guy looking for 28% protein feed for his chicken. I was shocked and thought chicken eats a lower protein diet. I don't have chickens of my own so I was only going off of my limited knowledge of pigeons, quails and pheasants. I expressed my thoughts to him and he explained to me that show birds needs high protein.

I thought too much protein can damage their liver?

 

[donut314]

Good information EggSighted4Life.

I always get 2nd or 3rd opinion about everything. I guess I should've asked him more details on how he is feeding. He might be mixing it with something else to make a special blend for his chicken or it might be just for growing chicks, etc. I wasn't confidence in my own opinion because I have never kept chicken and don't have anything to back myself with.

My guess is that Purina made their products specific for chickens because I find their Layer have too much calcium for my quails even when I mix it with the Game Starter to get that higher protein - their eggs have a lot of calcium pimples. Over time I finally got the right ratio for my birds: 1 part Layer to 2 parts Game Starter which is about 24% protein and I think that's good for game birds.

When I say high protein damage the liver, I was referring to pigeons. My research on pigeons says that pigeons shouldn't have more than 18% protein otherwise the extra protein will damage their liver in the long run. Which I don't know if it's true or not because my pigeon waste a lot of food, but never the high proteins - split peas, lentils, and chick peas.

 

[EggSighted4Life]

Many think the birds can get by on just regular scratch and such up to xx% and that is true, but they sustain better if they can free range for insects and other proteins...But in the cage/coop/run, I think all birds need a little more boost of meat proteins as they cant seek out the insects and worms which has more proteins than any common seed they may find.

Regular scratch is usually 8% protein...

I have yet to see a single person who feeds only scratch, free range or not... that has healthy birds. But I have seen many who come on here with birds that get only scratch that are almost dead and can't figure out why they haven't been laying, loosing feathers, and such. A lot of issues can be avoided by proper nutrition.

And really how effective free ranging is depends on your environment. Here, I might be able to raise the right breed on JUST forage just fine. I am in the PNW, on 1 acre where bugs and greens of many sorts abound all year long. But when I lived on a city lot in the desert, bugs were harder to find, to virtually non existent during the heat of summer and the green forage was much lesser of a variety. And then you add the cold winters, again no bugs and limited greens.

My guess is that feed formulas are made nutritionally sound for most confined situations and breeds. And with so many watch dog groups they are fairly regulated. Here is a link to some simple to understand info. There is one typo that say 5%, I'm guessing is actually supposed to be 15%. Still good info.

http://ucanr.edu/sites/poultry/files/186894.pdf

Also, as far as protein goes, I doubt the body knows the difference between bug protein verses say barley or pea protein. So as long as the commercial feed has the right protein content with it's other nutrients... how can you explain industry birds who never range or see a bug in their life cranking out eggs every day? Not saying it's right... but they are all light breed birds, making their requirements less than heavy breeds.

And most chicks are brooded indoors, rarely seeing a bug until they move outside, Yet they thrive on the feed with the protein level recommended for their age.

I'm sorry, I don't mean to seem argumentative.

I would be curious to know what your 21% layer feed gives up in exchange for the extra protein... (guess it's called Layer Concentrate)

actually, I looked at it and that would probably be one I would avoid for a few reasons (just me not saying anything about you)... but it says it is formulated to be mixed with grains "to provide the proper balance of all ingredients"... and "if egg shell quality declines after 10-12 months of laying, course ground limestone should be offered free choice or top dressed". But the kicker for me is the vagueness of the actual ingredients... grain products, processed grain by products, plant protein products, animal protein products, forage products... I like to know what's going in.. corn, soy, wheat, cat gut and rat legs... but come on they could be selling me saw dust with added nutrients under this kind of label.

I realize some label like that because they change their formulation according to what grain product might be available and still meet the same total value. Just not my cup of tea... er uh chicken feed.

Did you actually catch that it was supposed to be mixed with grains and not used as a sole ration?

Yes, I have spent WAY too much time reading labels when trying to decide what to feed... making me a little bit of a label natzi.

So cool for you to share another product that is available, even if it won't work for me. It's nice to have options!

 

[BarnGems]

12% protein is usually a gamebird maintenance for adult birds in non-breeding season.
15% is usually a finisher feed for meat birds.
Less than 16% protein is insufficient for body maintenance and egg laying.
Some feeds like feather fixer have about 3-4% calcium and about 18% protein. Breeder feeds are usually 17% protein.
I have access to a 20% protein layer feed but it is intended to be supplemented with scratch grains to lower the overall protein.

You may want to ask your feed mill why they are providing a layer feed with only 12% protein.

This is the exact problem I am having. Where I live alot of people have fighting roosters 'gamebirds' so they sell mostly this 12% as chicken feed. I am now having a huge issue with feather plucking and I believe the man switched my bags (no tags of course on the bag) and gave me the wrong feed. I'll be going back to the name brand feed and store. I am just miserable about the destruction two bags of low protein feed have done. I have a rooster missing 30% of his feathers only on his right side. (hen sleeps on his right side). I have removed the biggest offender for plucking but the damage is done.

 

[josie705]

I don’t know what protein level you are talking about. 16% protein in Layer is pretty common, but some members say they can get an 18% protein Layer. I wonder if they are talking about a special feed they get from a mill? I did find one 18% Layer with Google but they quit making that a while back. So I’ll assume you are talking about 16% protein Layer. That’s what I see at Tractor Supply.

My opinion. Layer feed is formulated for the egg laying industry. The hybrid commercial laying hens have relatively small bodies and have been bred to be really efficient at converting feed to eggs. They don’t have big bodies so they don’t need extra protein to maintain those big bodies.

The hybrid commercial layers generally lay Grade A Large eggs relative to body size based on what they eat. Extra protein would be detrimental to those chickens’ health because higher protein would mean the eggs are even larger. The larger eggs could lead to those small-bodied hens being egg bound or maybe cause prolapse.

Feeding high levels of protein can cause a hen to release extra yolks instead of the normal one at a time, especially with those hybrid laying hens. This would lead to more double yolked eggs if the yolks are released at the same time. This could lead to soft-shelled or otherwise less desired eggs if the yolks are released at different times so she lays two eggs that day. The hen’s body normally makes enough materials to create one egg a day. For example, if a hen uses her daily allotment of shell material on her first egg for the day, there isn’t enough shell material left to cover the second egg. If two eggs are in the shell gland at the same time, this can lead to marks on the egg that make them not suitable to go to a supermarket for sell to consumers. Not only does this endanger the hen’s health there isn’t much of a market for these weird eggs even if they don’t break and cause a mess that can contaminate other eggs or be a pain to clean up. Many of the weird eggs they get are sold to bakeries or such places at a reduced cost for use as broken eggs. It’s more profitable if those eggs go to supermarkets.

Layer feed is formulated to provide all they need if Layer is all they eat. When you start feeding treats you upset that balance. That could be protein of any of all the other nutrients they need to maintain health and production. That’s why you often see the recommendation that treats should not be more than 10% of their daily diet. That allows the nutrient levels to remain in the range where they need to be. People like to fixate on protein levels but a balanced diet is about a lot more than just protein.

In my opinion most of our chickens don’t need the extra protein as long as we don’t feed them a lot of low protein treats. The commercial operations for egg and meat production use hybrids especially bred to convert feed to eggs or meat very efficiently and have determined the exact amount of protein and other nutrients they need to maximize production. Overfeeding those hybrids can lead to to an increase in medical problems or other undesirable effects. Underfeeding them can lead to them being less productive.

In general our chickens are not that finely tuned. They can do quite well on less or more protein. They can generally maintain their bodies quite well if they eat a bit less protein, but the eggs may not be quite as large. If they eat a bit more than what is optimum for those laying hybrids their bigger bodies can handle it. They can handle a range of protein levels (along with other nutrients) and do quite well. That’s why the 10% rule-of-thumb on treats. If you feed a low protein treat, that drop is within they acceptable range. If you feed a high protein treat, that increase is within an acceptable range.

There are some exceptions. If you are raising chickens for show, you need to feed them a special diet with extra protein and other stuff. There are weight targets for show chickens that generally require bigger chickens than ours. They handle a lot of that by breeding but then they need to feed to that breeding. If you have always fed a high protein diet to your chickens, their bodies are tuned to that higher protein. If they are used to it, don’t change it, you might cause problems, not just medical but behavioral. Some people claim to resolve behavioral issues by increasing the protein content of their total daily diet. I haven’t seen that but that doesn’t mean it’s not true. We all manage them differently and there are many different possible causes of most behavioral issues. I can certainly see diet as one of those factors.

So, that's my thoughts.

I completely forgot about the commercial layers. I didn't even know there was 16%. Out here we only have feed stores and their protein is only 12%. I was thinking that's a little low. Tractor Supply has just moved here though, and opens on Saturday. Maybe I should take a look.

 

[Ridgerunner]

12%? Wow! Where are you and what is the store that sells that? I wonder if it’s meant for chickens or maybe something else?

No wonder you were asking.