Decrowing Roosters.

[centrarchid]

I did have a few Partridge Wyandottes that have been decrowed. But something came through and wiped out that pen. I just got rid of a pair of standard grey game roosters too, but the were not friendly. I do have a young black copper maran growing up now and he is crazy tame, and a few blue splash japanese chicks growing up too. But it'll be a while for those. If you are really interested I could do a bit of hunting around for something. What would you be interested in having? I dont really like gathering fowl from other sources due to disease issues.

I have been batting around the idea of ordering the "rooster special" from a hatchery and growing them out and decrowing them. That would allow a greater pick of breeds. Right now all I pretty much have are AGB and my gal has a few OEG bantams and the few Japs. The only thing is they would not be as socialized as a roo growing up with the owner. There hasn't been much feedback for me to start a process like that.

Dr. James

P.S. Thanks for the positive note.

For many keepers of poultry, the decrowing is a definant liabilty when it comes to predators. I have been keeping games for over 40 years (mine are all man-friendly owing to management system) and learned the value of vocal communication between birds and keeper. When a predator attacks the birds effectively scream bloody murder. Most often my dogs are front-line defenders responding immediatly to threat and often dispatch threat. There have been instances where I served that role and it is the ruckus made by birds that gets me out of house, especially at night, to deal with problem. I sleep with windows open whenever possible so that disturbances will stir me into action as needed. Birds with compromised vocal abillities will not be as effective in recruting me to save their lives.

Dr. Jim

 

[bluedogsonly]

I agree. The thing is, the bachelor pen is in a seperate yard. My dog lives in the other one. Also I was gone for the weekend, cant defend anything if you aren't home. The young japs were good at escaping too.

What are the chances that a predator will grab the solitary decrowed rooster, without disturbing the flock of hens around him? Hens also alert to predators.

Do you mind if I ask what your field of study is Dr. Jim?

Dr. James

 

[centrarchid]

Area of study is zoology although research activities deal with animal production. I think that makes opinion relevant.


I keep birds presently in about 60 pens with one to as many eight birds per pen. If birds can see predator, then they will sound alarm. If they cannot see as typical of after dark on moonless night, then one could be being torn up alive (squalling at same time) while others birds only a foot away will make no sound other than low volume "chuckle" alarm call. When moon is out entire yard can give alarm but predators show up disproportionately on moonless nights, especially raccoons. That bird being attacked may thus be your only alarm and if it is muffled, well you can figure out the impacts. Chicks in particular make little noise when attacked so I keep them close to house or even dogs sleeping area to compensate.

De-vocalized birds would need even better predator protection and could not be counted upon as being part of alarm system.

 

[janinepeters]

Dr. Jim

I got a chuckle out of this, because it hits what I find most grating about this thread. Dr. James, you are very polite and you've said on the one hand that you don't want to offend anyone, yet you seem to have an air that somehow your opinion counts more than those of others. You sign your posts with "Dr. James" as if your doctorship trumps all. Please be assured that there are other doctors in this forum, others who are highly educated but without doctorates, and others without as much formal education but with loads of experience with chickens or other birds or animals. All their opinions are relevant.

Dr. Janine
(conservation biologist, former psychiatrist, long term interest in animal behavior and animal welfare, and not using my real name on this forum)

 

[bluedogsonly]

Thanks again folks. Sorry about taking this in the wrong direction. It really comes down to a rooster that will no longer be alive if he crows, or one that can continue to live with an elective surgery.

I end these posts with "Dr. James" because it took hard work and a lot of time to get my degree. I am proud of it. Having that degree, I think, gives me a better understanding of the surgical/medicine side of my original question. I appreciate others' experience, but it seems, there is a lot of judgement and passive-aggressiveness concerning my experience. I have learned, and will continue to learn, from others that have been doing this longer than I.

Also, there has been only one other person to post on this thread that has actually observed these birds post surgery. Hopefully my friends that have the decrowed roos will someday login here and give their 2 cents.

I encourage anybody starting to follow this thread to start back at page 1 and try and get a better grasp of the original intention of this thread.

I'm going to offer this procedure free to 1 person who has a true need for it. A beloved pet that is in danger of losing his life, either scalpel or hatchet. If there is anybody interested, just PM me and we can work it out. That way, another person will have the advantage of contributing to this conversation based on experience.

Thanks all. Hope I'm not offending too many, but you can't please them all. Eh?

Dr. James

 

[janinepeters]

Having that degree, I think, gives me a better understanding of the surgical/medicine side of my original question. I appreciate others' experience, but it seems, there is a lot of judgement and passive-aggressiveness concerning my experience.

I encourage anybody starting to follow this thread to start back at page 1 and try and get a better grasp of the original intention of this thread.

The surgical/medical side of decrowing is not what people have been taking issue with. Not sure who/what you are referring to with the "passive-aggressive" comment, as you don't indicate. I'm wondering if it's me, since your comment immediately followed mine. I think I've been quite direct and assertive with my views, but if you would like any clarification, pls let me know.

Your original question from your 1st post was: "So please give me your input, good or bad on the subject of rooster decrowing." Yet you tend to dismiss it when anyone points out a potential negative.

Dr. Janine

 

[kukupecpec]

All the debate aside - I have more direct questions.

Is this procedure something that you will share with others? What is it that you actually do to the bird to deafen the crowing? The small noise made in your video from the first post would be a huge and tolerable improvement on regular crowing for city folk. I personally would love to have my roosters decrowed, but I, and many of the backyard production breeders here, do their own caponizing because of the cost. At $200 or more per rooster, it would be difficult to afford for anyone other than the wealthy hobbyist with that one favorite house roo.
Is there a reason - besides the cruelty of pain - that the rooster needs to be asleep? I can bet if you offered a how-to of some kind people would be more than willing to pay a few hundred to learn and do the procedure themselves.

I'm sure I'll come off as cruel, and I hope not to spur a new debate in backyard hackjob surgeries. This would just be a wonderful addition to the caponizing, bumblefoot suregery, and slaughtering how-to's available.

 

[bluedogsonly]

All the debate aside - I have more direct questions.

Is this procedure something that you will share with others? What is it that you actually do to the bird to deafen the crowing? The small noise made in your video from the first post would be a huge and tolerable improvement on regular crowing for city folk. I personally would love to have my roosters decrowed, but I, and many of the backyard production breeders here, do their own caponizing because of the cost. At $200 or more per rooster, it would be difficult to afford for anyone other than the wealthy hobbyist with that one favorite house roo.
Is there a reason - besides the cruelty of pain - that the rooster needs to be asleep? I can bet if you offered a how-to of some kind people would be more than willing to pay a few hundred to learn and do the procedure themselves.

I'm sure I'll come off as cruel, and I hope not to spur a new debate in backyard hackjob surgeries. This would just be a wonderful addition to the caponizing, bumblefoot suregery, and slaughtering how-to's available.

I have had a few vets contact me about learning how to do this. Talked to one on the phone for a while, (small world she was actually from my hometown but has moved to a different state) I think she tried and did not succeed. The surgery is very technical, a skilled hand is required and I have built some specialized instruments too. The bird does need to be under anesthesia, the syrinx is located at the bronchi where it splits to the lungs. You have to work through a hole the size of a nickel and you can actually see the heart beating a few cm away from where youre working. Its pretty tight in there and no room for slips. I think it would be too painful and much to risky to try it on a restrained concious bird. I would not recommend this be tried without a veterinarian.

Caponizing is a skill that I need to work on. First one ended up on the grill, second turned into a slip. Im set up on chicken for a while, I'll get a few broilers going again and try some more in the spring. I was actually thinking about crossing some Cornish bantams to Rock or wyandotte bantams to make bantam broilers for capons. I dont need a big dressed bird and seems like a fun project.

Dr. James

 

[Doubleyolker]

This subject is like debarking dogs. Most wouldn't do it. My daughter is a dog handler and has had clients that debark. For the most part, the dogs still seem to be well rounded and not concerned about how much noise they are or I guess ARENT making LOL . In fact all the same postering and barking goes on just without the volume. I guess there has to be a time that if it were debark or ??? I would debark. The three top behavior reasons someone dumps their dogs at the shelters are house training, chewing and BARKING. Of course I will jump right up on my soap box and start screaming about training here... but once in awhile

 

[kukupecpec]

This subject is like debarking dogs. Most wouldn't do it. My daughter is a dog handler and has had clients that debark. For the most part, the dogs still seem to be well rounded and not concerned about how much noise they are or I guess ARENT making LOL . In fact all the same postering and barking goes on just without the volume. I guess there has to be a time that if it were debark or ??? I would debark. The three top behavior reasons someone dumps their dogs at the shelters are house training, chewing and BARKING. Of course I will jump right up on my soap box and start screaming about training here... but once in awhile

I understand this is an opinion, so I'm not saying you are wrong, but I believe the only thing in common between debarking and decrowing is the noise reduction. Debarking is incredibly painful, and it takes a long time for a dog to recover from this procedure. Every single dog that I have seen debarked in one of the many clinics I have worked at has had a hell of a time attempting to recover and you can see the pain they are in even with the best pain medication we have to offer animals. This is saying a lot since many animals, including dogs and cats, hide their pain very well because pain is a weakness and that weakness in the wild would get them eaten.

So far this decrowing procedure is portrayed here to be much less painful with a much quicker and easier recover than a debarking - however I can't say for sure as I don't know much about the actual procedure.

I jus wanted to toss the difference out there in case you are suggesting decrowing to someone else you know - I wouldn't want them to mistake it for being equivalently as painful as a debark, even though the results are very similar.

Sorry - long winded explanation that you might already understand if you know much about the dog handling field from your daughter