Decrowing Roosters.

[jak2002003]

I guess maybe you have different roosters over there, but here ours crow at ALL hours. At night is the only time mine did not crow. I guess vets that spay are only in it for the money also right?

I am sure you know that vets that spay an animal are doing it for the best health reasons for the pet.

If they don't have this operation they can get cancer, or other life threatening illnesses.......the operation dramatically reduces or totally get rid of these potential illnesses. Its a great advantage to the pet, and also help to stop the massive number of unwanted puppies and kittens.

Now this is TOTALLY different from de crowing a rooster. This has more dangers to the bird, and NO health reasons to do it. There is also not a massive overpopulation of unwanted and stray chickens, so that need is no there either.

I don't know how anyone could compare the 2 things really.

 

[Tricoglossus]

Hello Dr. James,

Thank you for starting this thread, this is great stuff. I am studying veterinary medicine in Western Australia. I would be very interested in learning to do this procedure. Do you have plans to publish your work in a journal or hold a seminar at some stage? Thanks!

Also, I used to work at an avian and exotics practice in Sydney. Clients over there wouldn't bat an eyelid at spending $250 for the chance to keep a beloved pet rooster (and neither would I, and I am a poor student with little money to spare!)

 

[dretd]

Quote:
jak, respectfully, decrowing a rooster can and will save its life. Not maybe sometime in the future where it may develop a problem with the uterus or testes (where the organ could be removed at the time the problem is identified), but right now. ie A rooster is crowing too much and he either will get 're-homed' to someone who will eat him, or he can have a surgical procedure that will allow him to 'crow' away in silence and be a rooster for the rest of his natural life.

Life with surgery or death without. What would you choose if you were the rooster? I know what my choice would be.

Ultimately vets castrate animals because it makes them better pets. Although spaying a neutering does eliminate the risk of certain diseases, there is a body of evidence that it may contribute to or increase the incidence of other disease states. There was a study that looked at why some dogs lived much longer than others and the results showed that there is a downside to removing the ovaries: http://www.gpmcf.org/respectovaries.html

Here is an article with many references about spaying and neutering: http://www.caninesports.com/uploads/1/5/3/1/15319800/spay_neuter_considerations_2013.pdf

I told someone I know at the local vet school about the longevity study and they responded with a look of horror and said 'you aren't going to tell people about the study, are you?' The mantra is to spay and neuter and humane societies prefer to spay and neuter all puppies and kittens prior to adoption. Prevents more puppies and kittens but it really would be better for that individual animal to wait until maturity to remove the hormones.

So you may be right--you cannot compare the two procedures but, in fact, the dampening of the rooster's crow may be the more important procedure to perform (I am an advocate of spaying and neutering, by the way, but there is no free lunch and every animal should be treated as an individual and every procedure should be considered with that pet in mind).

 

[jak2002003]

jak, respectfully, decrowing a rooster can and will save its life. Not maybe sometime in the future where it may develop a problem with the uterus or testes (where the organ could be removed at the time the problem is identified), but right now. ie A rooster is crowing too much and he either will get 're-homed' to someone who will eat him, or he can have a surgical procedure that will allow him to 'crow' away in silence and be a rooster for the rest of his natural life.

Life with surgery or death without. What would you choose if you were the rooster? I know what my choice would be.

Ultimately vets castrate animals because it makes them better pets. Although spaying a neutering does eliminate the risk of certain diseases, there is a body of evidence that it may contribute to or increase the incidence of other disease states. There was a study that looked at why some dogs lived much longer than others and the results showed that there is a downside to removing the ovaries: http://www.gpmcf.org/respectovaries.html

Here is an article with many references about spaying and neutering: http://www.caninesports.com/uploads/1/5/3/1/15319800/spay_neuter_considerations_2013.pdf

I told someone I know at the local vet school about the longevity study and they responded with a look of horror and said 'you aren't going to tell people about the study, are you?' The mantra is to spay and neuter and humane societies prefer to spay and neuter all puppies and kittens prior to adoption. Prevents more puppies and kittens but it really would be better for that individual animal to wait until maturity to remove the hormones.

So you may be right--you cannot compare the two procedures but, in fact, the dampening of the rooster's crow may be the more important procedure to perform (I am an advocate of spaying and neutering, by the way, but there is no free lunch and every animal should be treated as an individual and every procedure should be considered with that pet in mind).

Thank you for this reply. I really gave me something to think about. I always like to keep an open mind and (as zoologist and nature lover) I like to keep up to date with everything. I read the articles, they were interesting, but lacking in actual facts or methods of the study... rather putting forward initial ideas. Still good though.

I have had to think why I am so against de crowing rooster. In the end I think that the actual operation does not really upset or offend me, but, rather its the attitudes of the people involved and their motives for doing it.

At one end of the scale I can see its 'only a chicken...a food animal....millions are killed every day and also millions are kept in horrid factory farming places... so the rooster having this operation is better off.

At the other end......I think its very sad about humans that want to do this, or any other modification to their animals that will bring only mutilation to the pet, and a period (some time longer or shorter) of great distress to the pet.

The rooster is not a human....it can not think its better off having this operation rather then being killed.

If the rooster was a pet....then I can't think the owners can really 'love' it to put it through this. They must see it would be better off someplace where it can make all the noise it likes.

De clawing a cat, or de barking a dog, is illegal in the UK and most of Europe, and I think everyone would be shocked to find out someone had it done here. Its considered cruel here.

I would be worried that once people started de crowing roosters, then other birds could follow, like parrots, geese, turkeys, etc, just so people could get to own then in the city. This is wrong to me.

Its all just seems selfish on the persons part, and I think it makes the animal (whatever it is) be a material thing for the persons pleasure.... rather than an animal to be cared for as a pet, and its not showing children good values about how to treat living things.. and in the end each other and themselves.

One another note, I notice that some of thes vet on here were almost promoting it... when I looked at their post they have been suggesting de crowing on nearly all their posts on other treads and also saying they were breeding and selling roosters that they de crowed personally. I bet they will not be selling them cheep... so I suspect that they are doing this de crowing thing to make money for themselves as a business, rather that suggesting it as a kindness for the rooster.

wow... i seem to have rattled on a bit. time for bed!

Just so say,, this is only my personal opinion, and its up to others to make up their minds. I hope I did not offend or annoy anyone... I don't want to do that.

 

[RachaelS]

Just so say,, this is only my personal opinion, and its up to others to make up their minds. I hope I did not offend or annoy anyone... I don't want to do that.

You are correct it was just your personal opinion and I apologize for the attack, I should have responded better.

I don't quite understand this comment
"The rooster is not a human....it can not think its better off having this operation rather then being killed.

If the rooster was a pet....then I can't think the owners can really 'love' it to put it through this. They must see it would be better off someplace where it can make all the noise it likes."

No animal is a human and none can logically think that their caretakers do what they do out of love, however, that is what we do. Even in preservation situations we do things that are good for the animal, that they may not do on their own. So should we stop doing that? There are a lot of extra Roosters around where I live, yes some try to get it a home that it can live to its fullest, sadly, most are eaten or used as bait in fighting.

Most vets do have a business to make money, hopefully they love what they do also, but that is why most people have a job regardless of what they do. Not sure why one would take issue with that.

 

[RachaelS]

Hey something just occurred to me, how do we even know that the rooster knows it was de-crowed? It can still perform the act of crowing. The videos of the chickens that have been de-crowed show an animal that is going on with it's daily life like nothing happened, it is not hiding in a corner. I know people that talk super soft but they don't realize how quite they are, the same with people that talk really loud. I have seen a few dogs that have been de-barked and they also don't seem to be aware that they were de-barked and continue to bark to their hearts content.

I doubt they give it a second thought, like most animals, they just move on and keeping living, if they are lucky enough.

Just another angle to think about.

 

[dretd]

Hey something just occurred to me, how do we even know that the rooster knows it was de-crowed? It can still perform the act of crowing. The videos of the chickens that have been de-crowed show an animal that is going on with it's daily life like nothing happened, it is not hiding in a corner. I know people that talk super soft but they don't realize how quite they are, the same with people that talk really loud. I have seen a few dogs that have been de-barked and they also don't seem to be aware that they were de-barked and continue to bark to their hearts content.

I doubt they give it a second thought, like most animals, they just move on and keeping living, if they are lucky enough.

Just another angle to think about.

I had a cat with an amputated back leg. When his ear was itchy he would hold it to the side and he would vigorously wiggle his back stump as if he were scratching it, shake his head then trot on away apparently very satisfied. I have seen declawed cats walk up to the couch/carpet/tree/chair and vigorously 'scratch' away then be on their way when they are done. I had a friend with a cat with an amputated front limb. When he was done in the litter box he would cover up the remains--scratch, scratch with his leg, twitch, twitch with his stump, scratch, scratch with his leg etc until he was done.

Animals don't seem to go through the mourning of the loss of abilities like humans do. They appear to live in the moment and make the best with what they have. I have seen them go through profound mourning for the loss of a companion, though.

In my mind, we need to use our judgment and do the best for the pets we have. Generally speaking, it's not the surgery that is inherently bad as long as we do the procedure with the animal's best interest in mind and use proper pain management while the animal is recovering.

 

[snot]

Hey something just occurred to me, how do we even know that the rooster knows it was de-crowed?  It can still perform the act of crowing.  The videos of the chickens that have been de-crowed show  an animal that is going on with it's daily life like nothing happened, it is not hiding in a corner. I know people that talk super soft but they don't realize how quite they are, the same with people that talk really loud. I have seen a few dogs that have been de-barked and they also don't seem to be aware that they were de-barked and continue to bark to their hearts content.

I doubt they give it a second thought, like most animals, they just move on and keeping living, if they are lucky enough.

Just another angle to think about.

This hits the nail on the head the animals behavior returns to normal the videos I saw showed roosters being roosters. So if the rooster shows he doesn't care about being decrowed why would anyone assume he feels or is less that he was before the surgery

 

[miquwid]

Agrees and in addition remember how much more humane this is than commercial chicken farms. What this allows is for people to have a setup that will allow them to have cleaner and healthier chickens with their roo in an environment that otherwise would not allow this.

 

[insanity]

Hello All,

I received a bantam roo from Dr. Richards on Wednesday. The little guy is great and settling in well.

I saw him crow this morning and was thrilled to hear basically nothing. He came through shipping well and doesn't seem bothered by his decrowing at all. He spent most the morning following me around and trying to butter up my 5 month old NN pullet (she wasn't to impressed). I am very happy with him. I haven't had a roo in years because of my neighbors but they won't even notice him.