Deep Litter Method.....

[patandchickens]

Quote:
Pine, spruce, fir, hemlock are really about the best, performance-wise. Hardwood shavings need to be watched closely b/c they are more apt to mold. The major issue with getting shavings from a lumber mill is that their quality is quite often poorer and always more *variable* than bagged shavings. Sometimes you can luck into a great source, in which case yay, but oftentimes you will get at least some loads that are real dusty or real woodchippy and don't make very good bedding.

Honestly, unless you are in unusual circumstances you probably needn't go through a whole lot of bedding (like bags per months) unless you *want* to - there are ways of arranging your life so's not to blow through excessive amounts of shavings. In which case driving a few extra miles to get *good quality, bedding type* bagged shavings can be very worthwhile if the closer mill shavings are not excellent bedding-type quality.

Do you not have a feedstore (farm store) closer to you? ALL feed stores should have bags of shavings for bedding, I've never seen one that doesn't anyhow. It won't be listed on their website and quite possibly not displayed on their shelves, but if you ask they will be happy to sell you some out of a semi trailer out back, or some such arrangement.

Good luck, ahve fun,

Pat

 

[Amiga]

Thanks, Pat, I expect I will be trying the mill if they have anything (the owner has livestock, and so may want it all for his own place).

The closest feed store is a couple of towns away - not crazy-distant, but toward the outer edges of what I consider "close." So, yes, I heartily agree that a place with good quality material a little farther away just means I need to stock up when I am out that way.

After lunch I plan to make a few quick calls to the nearest feed store and see what they have. Sometimes they have what I expect, sometimes they don't have things I would think a feedstore would have. There used to be a feedstore two miles down the road, but they got tired of running the business, I guess, and closed up shop several years ago. I miss that place.

Well, here we go - onto the next phase of learning.

 

[chauqg]

HOW DO YOU DO IT?

This site is without doubt the most comprehensive poultry resource site on the web –THANK YOU BYC. This thread is especially helpful relating to Deep Litter Method (DLM). I have several questions. I have read this and archives of past posts and not seen answers, or I could have possibly missed these points.

Circumstances are - 25 RIR layers 10x10’ with 88 sq foot of bird usable space, 32’ of roost with nest boxes subtracted from floor space. I live in Western Pennsylvania.

My uninsulated 10x10' coop with 5” of pine bedding began smelling of ammonia when the temp rose above freezing, it houses 25 RIR's that cannot free range for the near future. The coop is dry (excepting chicken poop) and draft free with plenty of light and good ventilation.

The ceiling slopes 8' - 6'; vented N to S each end with 4"x 10' vents at the top of the walls, which have been open since birds were added in December. The coop averages 20 degrees above outside temp with home made (in concrete block, on concrete bottom) 100 watt bulb heating 3-5 gallon of water and the concrete block enclosing it.

We put 5" of pine shaving in the coop on wooden floor on the 7th of December; three days ago, Jan 23, during normal daily coop trip I experienced an ammonia smell that was almost unbearable. I had to open the man door and two additional (20"x4') vertical windows on the E side to vent it. I turned the bedding, mixed it, broke any clots and added 8 cuft of aspen shavings under the clean roost area, which is the only place that had any moisture and it was only slightly damp. Remaining shavings were added to the nest boxes. The floor, other than under the roost, was dry (it is outdoor 3/4 ply with two coats of spar varnish). Under the roosts are 4x8' corrugated plastic sheets. The smell albeit mild returned today, Jan 26?!@$@! This has prompted these questions:

1) What is the optimum depth when using Deep Litter Method of bedding for laying poultry?
2) What is the maintenance type & frequency required? Turn? Scratch? Mix? Add? Daily? Weekly? etc.
3) Is ammonia smell the only sign of the need for more bedding or maintenance?
4) How much new litter should be added as a %, or is there another rule of thumb?
5) Should new litter be mixed, or added on top, or turned under the existing letter?
6) Are there other additives that are helpful and safe to maintain a proper coop using DLM?
Please indicate amounts and frequency i.e. light covering with DE weekly.
7) Realistic expectation of how long will litter (without removing it) remain safe for the health of the birds?
8) Are there indications when bedding should be replaced, or is it a logistic issue of handling/use?
9) How long must it “cure” before using in a garden? How can one tell the bedding is usable in a garden?
10) Are there any other considerations that I have missed?

Thank you for your time, I value and appreciate the effort members of this forum give for the health and safety of our feathered friends.

 

[Amiga]

chauqg,

I love Rhode Island Reds! Had one when I was 4. Her coop was bolted to the side of our house.

There are more serious experts here, but I can offer that from my general livestock-related compost experience, ammonia is a sign of a high pH. The aspen shavings are probably not helping with that. Some material that is has a lower pH would help.

The DE helps dry the material, but I don't think that will change the biochemical reactions that are producing ammonia, but it might.

Perhaps pine shavings instead of aspen might lower the pH a little. Patandchickens recommends softwoods, also. I will try to think of something else, also that would slightly lower the pH without being an irritant to the chickens.

Keep at it! And keep that coop properly ventilated - we want the chooks to breathe easy!

 

[patandchickens]

Quote:
If it is smelling, then probably it is not well *enough* ventilated, not well enough for that very high stocking rate anyhow. (That's only 4 sq ft per chicken *total space 24/7*, unless you have a run that was not mentioned).

So before addressing the deep litter questions, I would suggest

1) cutting/opening more ventilation (perhaps make them a foot high or more, not just 4" high).

2) install droppings boards if you do not already have them, and scrape them off (poo removed from coop) EVERY MORNING WITHOUT FAIL, which will remove almost half the ammonia and humidity input from your coop right then and there. And

3)is it perhaps possible to build a run so they can get out some? That would ease your problem considerably.

Without doing some of these things, particularly the first one, you are not going to be able to leave bedding in there for very long without ammonia/humidity problems, just b/c of the 4 sq ft per chicken thing.

1)What is the optimum depth when using Deep Litter Method of bedding for laying poultry?

Optimum is whatever works best for you. I think you would find it helpful to add more bedding -- most people add fresh bedding to their deep litter 'as needed'. But the basic bottom line is that you have quite a lot of chickens in not much space with not really very much ventilation, so just adding more bedding is not going to SOLVE your problem, just give you a bit more breathing room so to speak.

2) What is the maintenance type & frequency required? Turn? Scratch? Mix? Add? Daily? Weekly? etc.

Whatever works for you. Honest. There is no "the" deep litter method, it is not a particular programme, it is a whole family of different management strategies and you just have to experiment around to see what is most effective in your PARTICULAR situation.

4) How much new litter should be added as a %, or is there another rule of thumb?

"Some". Really, not a cookbook thing

Try adding X amount a few times, try adding half that, try adding twice that, you will see what works for your setup.

5) Should new litter be mixed, or added on top, or turned under the existing letter?

I don't bother mixing it in, as chickens do that. I think this is the commonest approach. I do not think it matters a great deal though.

6) Are there other additives that are helpful and safe to maintain a proper coop using DLM?

People are going to tell you to use DE or various stall powders to absorb moisture and neutralize some of the ammonia odor. However, please be aware these are band-aid fixes and do not address whatever imbalance created the problem in the first place. Much better, IMHO, to get to the root of the problem and correct THAT, which you only have to do once and does not require ongoing expense either

7) Realistic expectation of how long will litter (without removing it) remain safe for the health of the birds?

With high stocking density and insufficient ventilation? Not very long, as you are seeing. With high stocking density and very-ample ventilation, with litter added as needed? Potentially all winter, although in a very humid climate or one prone to lots of thaws you may not be able to do that as well. With lower stocking density and good ventilation? I haven't changed out all the bedding in my Sussex pen for, I don't know, probably a year and a half or two years; I do occasionally spot-clean around the feeders where a bunch of feed dust accumulates, and of course I have droppings boards under the roost, and I add fresh bedding every few months or so, but I will not be doing a total bedding change-out in the foreseeable future based on its current state. This is with 15 sq ft per chicken and good ventilation though.

8) Are there indications when bedding should be replaced, or is it a logistic issue of handling/use?

If it gets intractably ammonia-y, or so damp that humidity is becoming an insoluble problem (remember humidity in the coop is a big risk factor for frostbite at even-fairly-mild temperatures), it is probably about time to replace it. Note that if you have let the litter pack get really pretty deep, and it has not been well-stirred to the bottom, it's a real good idea to wait til you have several WARM WINDY days because it will reek hugely when you clean it out and you want the chickens to be outdoors at the time, and a good breeze whooshing the coop air clean

9) How long must it “cure” before using in a garden? How can one tell the bedding is usable in a garden?

Depends what you want to use it on. If you want to till it into the ground and plant into it, or put near sensitive or valuable plants, it is safest to wait at least 3-4 months, longer if it was super pooey. There are many situations where you can get away with applying limited amounts of fresher stuff directly around plants, but be aware it can backfire.

Good luck, have fun,

Pat​

 

[gryeyes]

I've recently learned my feed store also carries rice hulls for poultry bedding. It has the advantage of being compostable (is that a word?) right away; it doesn't use up near the nitrogen it takes to break down pine shavings.

I'm going to switch to rice hulls when I run out of my bale of pine shavings. It's more expensive, because it doesn't compact into bales like the pine shavings.


Hmmmmm..... wonder if it is going to be okay for the Deep Litter Method? Anybody know?

 

[2txmedics]

I use the DLM *deep litter method* ....I have like 6" of shavings, and when it got really cold, I added Hay as hay retains heat, so I mixed it real good, and I also added DE. Daily I go in and rake it around moving and fluffying it up...they love it....I did read and I have done this, that when you go to clean out your coops to not remove it all out of the coop to put fresh litter in. That you take out most of it, but you keep some as it composts to have certain good bacterias that help keep it cleaner. Ive done this and it has worked great for me.

The shavings I remove I spread all over the run, so blend into the ground and this also helps with muddy runs. every week I do sprinkle fresh DE into my coops, put apple cider vinegar into there waterers, and also DE into there feed...no problems since all this started.

keep it pretty deep....

 

[Chook-A-Holic]

Quote:
This brings up an interesting idea. Now I'm no chemist/expert by any means, so this may seem like a whacky Idea. There are times of the year around here that I have trouble with my litter getting too dry and dusty. What I do is to lightly mist the bedding with water using the garden sprayer and then turn the shavings. Why can't ACV be added to the water to raise the acidity level in the shavings? I'm not talking about a mixture that is so strong that will make it uncomfortable for the birds to breath. Just enough to treat the shavings and control the ammonia emissions when conditions occur. Also how will this affect the breakdown of the manure? Any other Ideas?

 

[Mac in Wisco]

Quote:
This brings up an interesting idea. Now I'm no chemist/expert by any means, so this may seem like a whacky Idea. There are times of the year around here that I have trouble with my litter getting too dry and dusty. What I do is to lightly mist the bedding with water using the garden sprayer and then turn the shavings. Why can't ACV be added to the water to raise the acidity level in the shavings? I'm not talking about a mixture that is so strong that will make it uncomfortable for the birds to breath. Just enough to treat the shavings and control the ammonia emissions when conditions occur. Also how will this affect the breakdown of the manure? Any other Ideas?

Sounds like a good idea to me. There are many poultry litter treatments on the market for commercial growers to reduce ammonia in their barns. Since high ammonia production requires increased ventilation, growers spend more on propane to fire the brooders when ammonia levels are high. By reducing ammonia levels they can save money on propane. Most of these are acid based treatments such as sulphuric acid or alum. I don't see any reason why vinegar wouldn't work if you apply enough of it.

 

[carolinasculpture]

Hi! I am still working out coop construction plans and am now leaning really far in the direction of the DLM. After reading some of the prior threads and resurrecting this one... I have a question or two that I may have missed.
1) I am in the south east, so pretty warm. Does/should this have any impact on my choice to go DLM? Does it still work OK with the heat/humidity? Can this "problem" be fixed by making sure there is a lot of ventilation when we build the coop?
2) The thing about dirt floors vs other flooring. Some have mentioned that the bedding does not really compost unless it is on the ground. Any experience/advise here would be great.
3) If we do the DLM with the dirt floor, what can be done about rodents? Does the DE keep them at bay as well? Which is the bigger problem...compost or rodents?
4) Are there any health considerations for humans with using the DE?

OK, I think that about covers it...for now. Each time I think I know something, I come up with many new questions! Thank you all so much for sharing your experience with the newbies! I know that my chicks are experiencing a much better start to life due to your knowledge!

A little about the projected coop/run to may be help with answers: we have red clay soil. The coop will be on a slight decline with any rain running down away from the coop. We were planning on about 2 sq ft per bird @ 8 birds (right now there are only 7...). The coop will be inside an enclosed run of 10x30 which they will have full access to 24/7. That is all I can think of, but can supply more detail if needed. Thanks again!