Developing My Own Breed Of Large Gamefowl For Free Range Survival (Junglefowl x Liege)

[Lukers]

I was just listening to a podcast that interviewed a poultry researcher from the University of Ohio. She said that they have a research flock of Egyptian Fayoumi that not only seem immune to Marek’s but extremely resistant to most viruses and bacterial diseases. They tried to cross them with broilers but they are just too wild and flighty. Now I wish I had introduced Fayoumi into my project birds but luckily they all seem healthy. I also have a bird in the mix now that is (I think) the biggest rooster I’ve ever had…so I’m excited about that!
View attachment 3687579

Looks good, what is he crossed of?

 

[Lukers]

So, my questions are, and I would like any experienced game fowl folks to chime in here, I want to get games or game crossed breeds such as Kraienkoppes or Sumatras or old English standards. I want them for free range living, since I keep the predators down well and can provide supplemental feed in the winter, and I want something that doesn't lay a ton of eggs, but does lay enough to eat a few and let the hens hatch the rest. Maybe a cross of like an ancona or leghorn with a game of some sort. I really am interested in the Kraienkoppe breed, and I'd like to be able to keep roosters together without any serious fights, though the scuffles and floggings for hens or pecking order are completely okay. Any advice?
Also, what do you all think of the birds from Sandhill preservation center? I would buy both layers and dual purpose birds and the game or game mixed breeds from them and I actually got an email response from Glenn Drowns of the farm answering a few of my questions, and I'd like to know what the rest of you think about the poultry from there, and not just chickens, but all of it.
Thank you
Luke
p.s. I'd add some oriental like asil or shamo if more protectiveness is needed, but again, how without pens or tie cords could one go about getting them to stop or at least reduce fighting, cross them with something or keep a mature rooster around whose tolerant of others but will break up fights? Or i could just add something else, if you can't tell, I'm very new, but curious about games.

 

[Florida Bullfrog]

So, my questions are, and I would like any experienced game fowl folks to chime in here, I want to get games or game crossed breeds such as Kraienkoppes or Sumatras or old English standards. I want them for free range living, since I keep the predators down well and can provide supplemental feed in the winter, and I want something that doesn't lay a ton of eggs, but does lay enough to eat a few and let the hens hatch the rest. Maybe a cross of like an ancona or leghorn with a game of some sort. I really am interested in the Kraienkoppe breed, and I'd like to be able to keep roosters together without any serious fights, though the scuffles and floggings for hens or pecking order are completely okay. Any advice?
Also, what do you all think of the birds from Sandhill preservation center? I would buy both layers and dual purpose birds and the game or game mixed breeds from them and I actually got an email response from Glenn Drowns of the farm answering a few of my questions, and I'd like to know what the rest of you think about the poultry from there, and not just chickens, but all of it.
Thank you
Luke
p.s. I'd add some oriental like asil or shamo if more protectiveness is needed, but again, how without pens or tie cords could one go about getting them to stop or at least reduce fighting, cross them with something or keep a mature rooster around whose tolerant of others but will break up fights? Or i could just add something else, if you can't tell, I'm very new, but curious about games.

I think the problem you're going to run into is that the fight drive may be tied to genes that are good for survival. You want your chickens to be as wild as possible while still retaining traits useful to humans. Part of what makes a rooster a good protector and progenitor for the next generation is his physical strength and aggressiveness. That's why roosters have spurs. It's so that the strongest roosters dominate and reproduce. If you want a flock of strong free rangers, you basically want a rooster that will kill all rivals for many years, until it gets overthrown by a younger, stronger, rooster that can take over flock management.

Here's how I manage having several roosters with strong fight drives. First, only one goes out on free range at a time. The rest go into coops. I rotate the roosters on and off of free range every several weeks to every few months.

Second, I've learned that young cockerels can grow up in relative safety under the watch of an aggressive brood cock at least until they spurs get points. At the point they feel like they can challenge the brood cock, that's when they get killed. The longer you leave them under the domination of the brood cock, the slower they mature. So you can raise out many young roosters from chicks on free range. When they start to mature, you cull ones you don't want and coop one or two that you may want to be a future brood cock.

Third, don't mix hatchery-made chickens with chickens coming off of game farms. You'll likely introduce disease to the gamefowl. Try to get your starting flock from the same source if you can. This will lower the likelihood of introducing disease your flock can't handle.

Fourth, pick two breeds to cross and no more. You'll get overwhelmed trying to cross in then genetically stabilize several lines.

 

[Red Mangrove]

Third, don't mix hatchery-made chickens with chickens coming off of game farms. You'll likely introduce disease to the gamefowl. Try to get your starting flock from the same source if you can. This will lower the likelihood of introducing disease your flock can't handle.

It seems counterintuitive to me to use immunodeficient chickens as founding stock for a survival breed. If they really need to be specially quarantined and protected from contact with outsiders, are they really fit for such a project? Perhaps I'm missing something here

 

[Florida Bullfrog]

It seems counterintuitive to me to use immunodeficient chickens as founding stock for a survival breed. If they really need to be specially quarantined and protected from contact with outsiders, are they really fit for such a project? Perhaps I'm missing something here

Its that the hatchery chickens may be loaded with leaky vaccines that unnaturally propagate pathogens for several years. For instance, a Marek’s vaccinated hatchery hen may carry Mareks for years and allow the virus to continuously mutate, when otherwise it might run through through the flock quickly in one form and be done like a wild fire that’s here today and gone tomorrow.

 

[NatJ]

Its that the hatchery chickens may be loaded with leaky vaccines that unnaturally propagate pathogens for several years. For instance, a Marek’s vaccinated hatchery hen may carry Mareks for years and allow the virus to continuously mutate, when otherwise it might run through through the flock quickly in one form and be done like a wild fire that’s here today and gone tomorrow.

That sounds like a reason to avoid vaccinated chicks, not all hatchery chicks.

The hatcheries I have looked at are selling unvaccinated chicks, unless you specifically choose vaccination and pay extra for it. So getting unvaccinated hatchery chicks does not seem difficult.

 

[Florida Bullfrog]

That sounds like a reason to avoid vaccinated chicks, not all hatchery chicks.

The hatcheries I have looked at are selling unvaccinated chicks, unless you specifically choose vaccination and pay extra for it. So getting unvaccinated hatchery chicks does not seem difficult.

My local non-chain feed store orders their chicks with full vaccinations. So if you’re using a feed store, chain or otherwise, it will depend on what their ordering policies are. The one time I ordered chicks directly from a hatchery, it was a terrible experience with nearly the entire batch dead in the box and the few survivors dead by the next couple of days. So I am pretty much limited to what my feed stores have in stock, which I have no idea what they have and haven’t been vaxed for.

 

[NatJ]

My local non-chain feed store orders their chicks with full vaccinations. So if you’re using a feed store, chain or otherwise, it will depend on what their ordering policies are. The one time I ordered chicks directly from a hatchery, it was a terrible experience with nearly the entire batch dead in the box and the few survivors dead by the next couple of days. So I am pretty much limited to what my feed stores have in stock, which I have no idea what they have and haven’t been vaxed for.

Given those experiences, I can see why you are avoiding hatchery chicks.

My own experiences have been very different. Over several decades of time, I have ordered from at least 6 different hatcheries, with multiple orders from some of them. I have never had an experience as bad as you described, not anywhere close. (This makes me wonder what went wrong with your order: hatchery, post office, weather during shipping, random chance, or something else. Chicks dead on arrival is obviously not something you caused!)

I think that ordering unvaccinated chicks from a hatchery could probably work for some people, although obviously not for everyone. There might be some places where it never works (bad local post office, or shipping paths that take too long, or something of the sort.)

 

[Florida Bullfrog]

Given those experiences, I can see why you are avoiding hatchery chicks.

My own experiences have been very different. Over several decades of time, I have ordered from at least 6 different hatcheries, with multiple orders from some of them. I have never had an experience as bad as you described, not anywhere close. (This makes me wonder what went wrong with your order: hatchery, post office, weather during shipping, random chance, or something else. Chicks dead on arrival is obviously not something you caused!)

I think that ordering unvaccinated chicks from a hatchery could probably work for some people, although obviously not for everyone. There might be some places where it never works (bad local post office, or shipping paths that take too long, or something of the sort.)

I have it documented in the Saipan Junglefowl thread. The impression I had is they got too cold in shipping.

 

[RobG7aChattTN]

So, my questions are, and I would like any experienced game fowl folks to chime in here, I want to get games or game crossed breeds such as Kraienkoppes or Sumatras or old English standards. I want them for free range living, since I keep the predators down well and can provide supplemental feed in the winter, and I want something that doesn't lay a ton of eggs, but does lay enough to eat a few and let the hens hatch the rest. Maybe a cross of like an ancona or leghorn with a game of some sort. I really am interested in the Kraienkoppe breed, and I'd like to be able to keep roosters together without any serious fights, though the scuffles and floggings for hens or pecking order are completely okay. Any advice?
Also, what do you all think of the birds from Sandhill preservation center? I would buy both layers and dual purpose birds and the game or game mixed breeds from them and I actually got an email response from Glenn Drowns of the farm answering a few of my questions, and I'd like to know what the rest of you think about the poultry from there, and not just chickens, but all of it.
Thank you
Luke
p.s. I'd add some oriental like asil or shamo if more protectiveness is needed, but again, how without pens or tie cords could one go about getting them to stop or at least reduce fighting, cross them with something or keep a mature rooster around whose tolerant of others but will break up fights? Or i could just add something else, if you can't tell, I'm very new, but curious about games.

Honestly early on is the time to play fast and loose with bringing in birds. This is when you have the least investment and you are trying to bring in various genes.
I don’t agree that the most aggressive birds are the best free rangers. Wild Jungle fowl are the most adapted for being wild but they don’t fight to the death. It makes no logical sense for a young bird to fight to the death before he has gained size and experience. Those game birds that fight to the death were made that way by humans. Wild Red Jungle Fowl don’t do that.
The problem is domestication creates and perpetuates disease but gives up wild traits. Wild birds do great living wild but aren’t tame at all, don’t lay many eggs and don’t have good disease resistance.
Pure Red Jungle Fowl were brought over from India and were raised and released in the Southeast in an attempt to make a wild game bird for the Southeast the same way the Dakotas have Chinese Ringneck Pheasants. Obviously it didn’t work…and the remnants of that project are the Richardson Strain…the only Pure Reds in the US. Those birds are adapted perfectly for living wild in Indianbut not the US. Hatchery “Reds” that sell for $5 each and are said to lay 250 eggs a year are mostly domestic. Real pure Reds are much more expensive.
The most disease resistant birds out there are Egyptian Fayoumi. The University of Ohio has a flock for research and they have been proven resistant not just to Marek’s but even most bacterial and viral infections.
In my mind you want the MOST genetic variation early on to get lots of combinations to pick from. If I was doing it from scratch I’d probably find a very old, semi-feral gamefowl running wild on a farm somewhere and cross those with Fayoumi. Then I’d cross those hens with a pure Grey Jungle Fowl and a pure Ceylon Jungle Fowl and then breed the males back to those mixed hens. At about 6.25% I’d inbreed those lines. At that point I’d start free ranging and pick the survivors to make a breed that might live feral well.