Developing My Own Breed Of Large Gamefowl For Free Range Survival (Junglefowl x Liege)

[Red Mangrove]

I don’t agree that the most aggressive birds are the best free rangers. Wild Jungle fowl are the most adapted for being wild but they don’t fight to the death. It makes no logical sense for a young bird to fight to the death before he has gained size and experience. Those game birds that fight to the death were made that way by humans. Wild Red Jungle Fowl don’t do that.

Mindless berserkers that fight to the death against everything would be removed from the gene pool very fast. IIRC Florida Bullfrog made a good point that even gamefowl probably don't fight to the death under natural circumstances, but that death-fighting is likely the result of social isolation. Cockerels raised in a social hierarchy would learn respect, unlike those raised in isolated game barrels

 

[troyer]

Mindless berserkers that fight to the death against everything would be removed from the gene pool very fast. IIRC Florida Bullfrog made a good point that even gamefowl probably don't fight to the death under natural circumstances, but that death-fighting is likely the result of social isolation. Cockerels raised in a social hierarchy would learn respect, unlike those raised in isolated game barrels

I raised Ganoi for several years and the stags highly respected the brood cock until the stags reached their second year. Some of them even waited until spring of their third year before challenging the brood cock, but when they did it was a fight to the end of one or the other.
The brood cock also broke up fights among the stags if they seemed to get out of hand.
If there was no brood cock to regulate things the stags started fighting as early as four months of age and things didn't ever really cool off until one or several were so beat up they often wouldn't survive even if they weren't killed initially.

 

[RobG7aChattTN]

Mindless berserkers that fight to the death against everything would be removed from the gene pool very fast. IIRC Florida Bullfrog made a good point that even gamefowl probably don't fight to the death under natural circumstances, but that death-fighting is likely the result of social isolation. Cockerels raised in a social hierarchy would learn respect, unlike those raised in isolated game barrels

I don’t think it’s being raised in isolation as much as many generations of selective breeding for overly aggressive behavior. No animals in nature just fight to the death any time one male meets the other. It’s not even a good strategy for the victor if he is so wounded that he is more easily defeated by another male. The best scenario is a male that is so intimidating that he doesn’t even need to fight.

 

[Florida Bullfrog]

Mature red junglefowl will fight to the death in nature, and young gamefowl stags will run from mature game cocks in a free range setting.

Young gamefowl stags don’t throw themselves aimlessly at a mature game rooster when they’re socialized into the flock from chickhood. The social order of a gamefowl flock does what you would expect it to do in a natural setting to promote the strongest genes. The stags submit to the mature rooster for a long time. Then they either challenge and get killed, or they get run off and spend the next year or two living in the surrounding woods as bachelors. One will eventually return as a 2 year old cock and challenge the old man and will either win or lose.

Red junglefowl basically do the same thing in nature.

When you have a young gamefowl stag that goes crazy on something it can’t beat, its usually not genetics causing the behavior. Its a lack of socialization of the stag to the flock’s pecking order.

If a person wants crazy acting gamefowl stags that throw themselves at whatever, don’t let them grow up in a free range flock under a mature rooster.

 

[Florida Bullfrog]

Mindless berserkers that fight to the death against everything would be removed from the gene pool very fast. IIRC Florida Bullfrog made a good point that even gamefowl probably don't fight to the death under natural circumstances, but that death-fighting is likely the result of social isolation. Cockerels raised in a social hierarchy would learn respect, unlike those raised in isolated game barrels

Exactly, you beat me to the answer.

 

[Florida Bullfrog]

I don’t think it’s being raised in isolation as much as many generations of selective breeding for overly aggressive behavior. No animals in nature just fight to the death any time one male meets the other. It’s not even a good strategy for the victor if he is so wounded that he is more easily defeated by another male. The best scenario is a male that is so intimidating that he doesn’t even need to fight.

Gamefowl don’t do that either if they’re allowed to grow up in a structured flock under stronger adults. Not until they’re very mature.

 

[Lukers]

Honestly early on is the time to play fast and loose with bringing in birds. This is when you have the least investment and you are trying to bring in various genes.
I don’t agree that the most aggressive birds are the best free rangers. Wild Jungle fowl are the most adapted for being wild but they don’t fight to the death. It makes no logical sense for a young bird to fight to the death before he has gained size and experience. Those game birds that fight to the death were made that way by humans. Wild Red Jungle Fowl don’t do that.
The problem is domestication creates and perpetuates disease but gives up wild traits. Wild birds do great living wild but aren’t tame at all, don’t lay many eggs and don’t have good disease resistance.
Pure Red Jungle Fowl were brought over from India and were raised and released in the Southeast in an attempt to make a wild game bird for the Southeast the same way the Dakotas have Chinese Ringneck Pheasants. Obviously it didn’t work…and the remnants of that project are the Richardson Strain…the only Pure Reds in the US. Those birds are adapted perfectly for living wild in Indianbut not the US. Hatchery “Reds” that sell for $5 each and are said to lay 250 eggs a year are mostly domestic. Real pure Reds are much more expensive.
The most disease resistant birds out there are Egyptian Fayoumi. The University of Ohio has a flock for research and they have been proven resistant not just to Marek’s but even most bacterial and viral infections.
In my mind you want the MOST genetic variation early on to get lots of combinations to pick from. If I was doing it from scratch I’d probably find a very old, semi-feral gamefowl running wild on a farm somewhere and cross those with Fayoumi. Then I’d cross those hens with a pure Grey Jungle Fowl and a pure Ceylon Jungle Fowl and then breed the males back to those mixed hens. At about 6.25% I’d inbreed those lines. At that point I’d start free ranging and pick the survivors to make a breed that might live feral well.

Thanks. So see, I don't want them entirely feral, just enough to hide their nests out in the brush within the property lines where the dog can keep the coyotes run off and I can keep the skunks trapped out and something that has enough instinct to fly up into the tall cottonwoods or hide her brood from the cooper's hawk. And see there too, there the difference, tons of chickens have the ability to fly from danger, but not the instinct. I have anconas and leghorns, and they haven't the sense at all to fly or roost in a tree, even though they're plenty muscular and have decent sized wings for it. And at the same time, I have some cochin and old english game bantams who have the instinct to fly and even one banty cochin cockerel that wants to roost in the trees, but they don't have enough umph to get up there or for the OEGB's (which I know aren't really true games) to have enough size to not be a target for even small male cooper's hawks. Thanks though, and another issue, I need permits in my area to own Ceylons and Greys. Great thoughts, I know that, yes, I would only let the fittest survive, thats how landraces came about, not based on appearance or production, but survival, and if it produces enough thats a perk.

 

[Lukers]

Gamefowl don’t do that either if they’re allowed to grow up in a structured flock under stronger adults. Not until they’re very mature.

Thanks for the info, I figured so, but i'd always been told that some, like malays, American games or aseels will fight, no matter what.

 

[Red Mangrove]

and another issue, I need permits in my area to own Ceylons and Greys.

I highly doubt that any government stooge could recognize these in the first place. I would just call them mixed gamefowl or something

Egyptian Fayoumi also have a heavy amount of Ceylon junglefowl blood for the record. They even retained the unique polyandry breeding habits of the Ceylon

My Fayoumi are suffering from high rates of predation though, I think simply because of camoflage issues. The ideal bird would match it's environment of course

 

[Bigtom Turkey]

I raised Ganoi for several years and the stags highly respected the brood cock until the stags reached their second year. Some of them even waited until spring of their third year before challenging the brood cock, but when they did it was a fight to the end of one or the other.
The brood cock also broke up fights among the stags if they seemed to get out of hand.
If there was no brood cock to regulate things the stags started fighting as early as four months of age and things didn't ever really cool off until one or several were so beat up they often wouldn't survive even if they weren't killed initially.

I have had the same experiences. I have to separate some males at 5 weeks if they are brooder raised. But hen raised birds that are allowed to mingle with the full grown cocks are very submissive until they are mature themselves. And even then they will still opt against it unless penned away from the cock that scares them. Its only when they lose their fear of them that they start challenging the cock.