Does hen or rooster (or both) determine egg size and production.

[chickkrzi]

[COLOR=333333]Did the 3 yr oLd RIR hen that lays egg anywhere from 70g to almost 90g eggs lay eggs that big her first year laying?[/COLOR]
[COLOR=333333]Might have to wait until after her first adult molt to see the true potential in egg size?[/COLOR]

no she didn't start laying 65+. But when the others in her age group where laying 55-60g she was laying 65-70g eggs.

 

[chickkrzi]

I think it's a combination of genetics and environment.  If a chick starts out with optimal nutrition, she'll develop the reproductive system that will support production of a larger egg.  (I've noticed that my hens eggs are larger after they've had a good protein feast.)  Also, when she is laying, if she has excellent nutrition, her egg will be larger, and produce a more robust chick.  Continue this cycle for multiple generations, always choosing the best eggs from the hens who produce the biggest and most frequent eggs, and you'll end up with a superior flock.  Choose your roosters from eggs hatched from superior hens.  But, I'm not sure I'd want to push my flock in the direction of producing mega eggs which have resulted in egg binding issues.  To OP:  Why did you say you did not want to deal with Ideal?  Is that where your original girls came from?

I didn't mean it sound like I didn't want to deal with ideal. Just seems to be my only choice. Was thinking about heritage RIR, but I'm not sure I want to go to the trouble of line breeding. Where as it stands now I just check Craigslist for a free or cheap rooster when I need to introduce a new bloodline. But of course if I want to improve my stock I probably should do some research on line breeding.

 

[ChickenLegs13]

If you want to develope a good flock I'd avoid the free craiglist roosters. There's no telling what kind of undesirable chicks they will produce. You're liable to raise up hens that lay a white 40 gr. bantam egg.

 

[chickkrzi]

I do avoid most of what's on CL. But every once and a while you can find a good deal. I got the one below just this last Saturday. The lady I got him from had a small flock of 10 hens and one rooster she order from a local feed store. She found out it was more work than she wanted. A guy bought her hens but didn't need another roo. I payed $10 for him and then she gave me the 40 lbs of feed and 15lbs of scratch she had left over. I'm thinking I came out OK on that deal. Now I have 2 roosters for two lines of off springs.
But last spring my wife came home with 3 barred rock pullets from Atwoods (and I'm sure they came from Ideal), and one is laying the whitest eggs I've ever seen.

 

[lazy gardener]

OK, Now, I understand your reservations about Ideal! PBR who lays a white egg, must be real high in the leghorn genetics! No matter what you end up doing regarding breeding your own flock, it's guaranteed to be highly entertaining and educational. (IMO... but then, I lead a simple life!)

 

[Ridgerunner]

With chicken genetics you are talking about a gene pair at each location on the chromosome. A rooster gives one copy of a gene at each location on the chromosome to all his offspring, male and female. If both genes at that location are the same, the offspring gets the same thing. But if there is a difference in the genes at that gene pair, then he randomly gives one of those two genes to all his offspring. Since a rooster gives one copy at each location, he contributes to all the characteristics of his offspring, including egg laying ability.

A hen does not do that. She gives one copy from each location on the chromosome to her sons, but she does not give any sex linked genes to her daughters. That means the hen decides which of her offspring are male and which are female. That means she does not contribute as much of the genetics to her daughters as the rooster does.

As Mrs. K said, there are many different gene pairs that contribute to egg laying traits. I don’t know how many of those are sex linked but it stands to reason some are. As a minimum a rooster will contribute just as much as the hen to the genetics of egg laying.

A rooster does not lay an egg. You can’t tell by looking at the rooster what genetics he will contribute, but if his mother and his grandmothers were good egg layers, then the rooster probably passes on some pretty good genetics. You can see what the hen is leaving in the nest so you have a much better idea of what genetics she is contributing. The traditional way and about the only practical way to improve egg laying quality is to hatch your best eggs and keep your breeding chickens from them.

Most hatcheries use the pen breeding method as a way to maintain the genetic diversity of their flock. That means the genes are going to be mixed up and not as consistent as breeders trying to eliminate certain genetic diversity from their flock. If you are wanting to consistently get larger eggs from your flock, then that means you are reducing genetic diversity for that trait. A lot of that success depends on the person selecting which chickens get to breed too. If they select for certain traits and know what they are doing, either in a hatchery or a private breeder, then those traits will be enhanced. But if they are no selecting for a specific trait, then that trait could be all over the place.

If you can find a breeder that is breeding for the trait you want, then you are way better off with their chickens. But if you find a breeder that is breeding purely for show and only breeding for the traits the judge sees, you may get a chicken with perfect SOP eye color but you don’t know anything about the egg laying traits the hens might have. The judge does not see the hen’s eggs.

You can improve the egg laying ability of your flock by hatching your best eggs and selecting hens and roosters to breed from those, always going with your best egg laying hens. If you can get your starting stock from a breeder that is actually breeding for your goals, then you are starting off in a real good place.

 

[ChickenLegs13]

The way I see it you bought 55 lbs of feed for $10 and they threw in a free rooster with unknown provenance.
He does look like some kind of production red so maybe he'll work out and make some good layers.
I started my current flock from free, unwanted chickens and after 3 years I've worn out my incubator and my hatchet and am nowhere near producing a 70 gr egg.

 

[donrae]

I'll bet your white egg layer is actually a barred Holland. Ideal has them and they're very similar to a hatchery barred Rock. If you don't want her, send her to me

. I've got a breeding project for them and mine are just now starting to lay.

 

[chickkrzi]

I'll bet your white egg layer is actually a barred Holland. Ideal has them and they're very similar to a hatchery barred Rock. If you don't want her, send her to me  . I've got a breeding project for them and mine are just now starting to lay. 

Thanks, it never dawned on me that my barred rock might be a Barrd Holland. I'm will to bet you're right on that.
I'll try and compare her to my other barred rocks when I get home today.

 

[chickkrzi]

With chicken genetics you are talking about a gene pair at each location on the chromosome. A rooster gives one copy of a gene at each location on the chromosome to all his offspring, male and female. If both genes at that location are the same, the offspring gets the same thing. But if there is a difference in the genes at that gene pair, then he randomly gives one of those two genes to all his offspring. Since a rooster gives one copy at each location, he contributes to all the characteristics of his offspring, including egg laying ability.

A hen does not do that. She gives one copy from each location on the chromosome to her sons, but she does not give any sex linked genes to her daughters. That means the hen decides which of her offspring are male and which are female. That means she does not contribute as much of the genetics to her daughters as the rooster does.

As Mrs. K said, there are many different gene pairs that contribute to egg laying traits. I don’t know how many of those are sex linked but it stands to reason some are. As a minimum a rooster will contribute just as much as the hen to the genetics of egg laying.

A rooster does not lay an egg. You can’t tell by looking at the rooster what genetics he will contribute, but if his mother and his grandmothers were good egg layers, then the rooster probably passes on some pretty good genetics. You can see what the hen is leaving in the nest so you have a much better idea of what genetics she is contributing. The traditional way and about the only practical way to improve egg laying quality is to hatch your best eggs and keep your breeding chickens from them.

Most hatcheries use the pen breeding method as a way to maintain the genetic diversity of their flock. That means the genes are going to be mixed up and not as consistent as breeders trying to eliminate certain genetic diversity from their flock. If you are wanting to consistently get larger eggs from your flock, then that means you are reducing genetic diversity for that trait. A lot of that success depends on the person selecting which chickens get to breed too. If they select for certain traits and know what they are doing, either in a hatchery or a private breeder, then those traits will be enhanced. But if they are no selecting for a specific trait, then that trait could be all over the place.

If you can find a breeder that is breeding for the trait you want, then you are way better off with their chickens. But if you find a breeder that is breeding purely for show and only breeding for the traits the judge sees, you may get a chicken with perfect SOP eye color but you don’t know anything about the egg laying traits the hens might have. The judge does not see the hen’s eggs.

You can improve the egg laying ability of your flock by hatching your best eggs and selecting hens and roosters to breed from those, always going with your best egg laying hens. If you can get your starting stock from a breeder that is actually breeding for your goals, then you are starting off in a real good place.

Thanks for the info. After reading your post I had one of those "Duh that makes sense " what was I thinking.

I almost kept one of her sons and was going breed her back to him. But as I stated before I had 3 of the 8 chick's with Legg deformities. Also two of her pullets didn't start to lay until 7 months and the 3rd at 10 months. So I really didn't want those traits in my flock, so I got rid of him.
My next step (and please correct me if I'm wrong it)is to try and find a breeder in my area that has similar goals. Or breed her with my new rooster, take one of there sons and breed him back to his mother. Then breed him back to his daughters?