Egg production dropping on organic layer feed?

[KYTinpusher]

I believe GMOs are detrimental to my family's health and my bird's health too, and I choose to avoid them. And most mass produced commercial feeds are full of GMO grains as they are cheaper and more readily available (for now) than organic and/or conventional grains.

Believe whatever you want - the science says otherwise. 

GMOs are more prevalent because they grow better, cost less to grow, and use less fertilizer and pesticides. They're a very useful tool in the farmer's toolbelt.

That was the plan, but is not the reality. The Ag companies are producing new varieties to be used with even more toxic pesticides (yea, I want elements of Agent Orange sprayed on my food - NOT!) because the current varieties are creating problems with superweeds.

 

[CrazyTalk]

That was the plan, but is not the reality. The Ag companies are producing new varieties to be used with even more toxic pesticides (yea, I want elements of Agent Orange sprayed on my food - NOT!) because the current varieties are creating problems with superweeds.

No, they're not.

Every year the FDA's pesticide requirements get stricter and stricter. Pesticides get safer and safer. Agent Orange hasn't been used in 40 years, and the fact that you're even mentioning it just shows that you don't understand the issue. Stop spreading ignorant FUD.

As to the issue of "superweeds," every method of controlling weeds produces weeds resistant to that method - it's basic evolution - which is why farmers rotate crops, and rotate pesticides - something that the organic farmers often don't do - they just keep spraying NEEM, or keep spraying d-limenone, or rotenone (which is toxic as all heck).


Farmers love glysophate because it is highly effective, actually kills weeks instead of just burning their foliage like some of the organic control methods, and is drastically safer than previous generations of pesticides.

 

[ReillyJ]

I did not say that corn and soy are crap. The local feed that I mix with the Sn'P actually contains both. I think it benefits my chickens. I said "GMO CRAP". I believe GMOs are detrimental to my family's health and my bird's health too, and I choose to avoid them. And most mass produced commercial feeds are full of GMO grains as they are cheaper and more readily available (for now) than organic and/or conventional grains.

Sorry, no you're not the one that said that, i did.

HOWEVER...this is all food for thought for me and i have decided to mix a commercial layer feed in with SnP as NO ONE on this forum has ever brought up Soy/Corn as important for energy production for hens (at least on the threads i've posted or read) and i am listening (even though i loathe the idea of Soy even for chickens) and i do want my chickens to have all they need in their diet. I will continue with SnP as it just resonates with me and what i'm trying to achieve for my hens but like i said, i am taking into consideration everything that's been said. I will never know 100% if i'm doing the right thing with any single feed as at my core i am holistic minded but i think that's the route i'm going to go at this point. Perhaps i can find a layer pellet feed that is organic but does have the supposedly very important Soy/Corn

EDIT:

Okay, i am thinking i may go with this layer pellet as all arguments aside, organic IS important to me. My local CO OP carries Organic Pride Layer pellets. Ingredients:
Organic Layer Pellet 50 Lb. Organic Pride Poultry Foods are carefully crafted to provide wholesome, certified organic nutrition to your poultry. The ingredients selected were grown and processed to meet strict organic standards for the health of you animals. From formulations to milling, no synthetic fertilizers, pesticides or GMO's have been used in the growth of the ingredients used.

Guaranteed Analysis
Crude Protein, Not less than................................16.0%
Crude Fat, Not less than .....................................3.25%
Crude Fiber, Not more than ...................................8.0%
Calcium (Ca), Not less than .................................3.5%
Calcium (Ca), Not more than .................................4.0%
Phosphorus (P), Not less than ..............................0.50%
Salt (NaCl), Not less than ...................................0.25%
Salt (NaCl), Not more than ..................................0.50%
Lysine, Not less than .........................................0.70%
Methionine, Not less than ...................................0.26%
Ingredients
Organic Corn, Organic Soybean Meal, Organic Peas, Organic Flaxseed, Organic Barley, Calcium Carbonate, Monocalcium Phosphate, Dicalcium Phosphate, Salt, Vitamin A Supplement, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Vitamin E Supplement, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Riboflavin Supplement, Niacin Supplement, d-Calcium Pantothenate, Menadione Sodium Bisulfite Complex (source of vitamin K activity), Thiamine Mononitrate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Folic Acid, Biotin, Copper Sulfate, Ethylenediamine Dihydriodide, Ferrous Sulfate, Manganous Oxide, Manganese Sulfate, Sodium Selenite, Zinc Oxide, Zinc Sulfate

I will mix this in with my Scratch n Peck that i'm feeding. I had switched to a TWENTY percent protein bag while they were molting and they've done very well on it, however a SnP rep told me it's not good to keep them on it as we don't want them gaining too much weight. I was thinking if i mix the above Layer Pellet in, would it be beneficial to keep them on the 20% SnP? The other SnP i had them on was 16%

Any thoughts or advice?

 

[chickengeorgeto]

Well this is all very interesting and the first time anyone has ever explained this to me. So i'm wondering the VALUE of this kind of feed? Organic is important but i thought i was doing my hens a service not feeding corn or soy (i'm not a fan of either) BUT...if it's going to affect the health of my hens (and their egg laying) then perhaps i should rethink?

I had them on the same feed (Scratch n Peck organic) but just went through a 20% protein bag as i really think they had gone through a molt, they DO continue to lay (i ferment the feed) but yes, daylight hours dwindling have produced less eggs although the most certainly are still laying.....

The feed mentioned in the first post is totally inadequate. The first ingredient is wheat and almost every other ingredient is some kind of cheap byproduct of one milling procedure or the other, no doubt sweepings from the factory floor. Raisins the second most common ingredient are nothing but hard nodules of sugar. No wonder that you have to wet it to basically keep it from blowing away. Besides that it is so poor nutritionally that many of the ingredients listed (over 30) are "supplements" Why would so many "supplements" be needed in an "organic" chicken ration?

I am not going to recommend a chicken food to you but if you will read the ingredient tag on a bag of Pig or Hog Chow it will give you a good idea of what ingredients to look for in a bag of chicken feed. I see statements on this sight every day where the poster admits little to no chicken keeping experience. Remember this, boutique chicken feed is formulated first and foremost to satisfy or fulfill the notions of new chicken owners more than these foods are formulated to satisfy a chickens' appetite. This is just like the fishing lure that first has to catch the fisherman's' fancy before it catches the first fish.

Choose something with real animal protein like fish, meat, blood, or bone meal etc as well as milk by products. Another good way is to add about 5% of a good kibble sized dog and/or cat food to your layer ration. While free ranging is good for a chicken (that is if the chickens' owner keeps on top of treating for intestinal parasites) before long most of the wee critters in a small or limited free range environment are consumed by the hens. Then the biggest benefit of free ranging is fresh air, Sunshine, and the exercise or conditioning that your hens get by looking for nonexistent bugs, & dodging hawks and foxes.

 

[ReillyJ]

The feed mentioned in the first post is totally inadequate. The first ingredient is wheat and almost every other ingredient is some kind of cheap byproduct of one milling procedure or the other, no doubt sweepings from the factory floor. Raisins the second most common ingredient are nothing but hard nodules of sugar. No wonder that you have to wet it to basically keep it from blowing away. Besides that it is so poor nutritionally that many of the ingredients listed are "supplements" Why would so many "supplements" be needed in an "organic" chicken ration?

I am not going to recommend a chicken food to you but if you will read the ingredient tag on a bag of Pig or Hog Chow it will give you a good idea of what ingredients to look for in a bag of chicken feed. I see statements on this sight every day where the poster admits little to no chicken keeping experience. Remember this, boutique chicken feed is formulated first and foremost to satisfy or fulfill the notions of new chicken owners more than these foods are formulated to satisfy a chickens' appetite. This is just like the fishing lure that first has to catch the fisherman's' fancy before it catches the first fish.

Choose something with real animal protein like fish, meat, blood, or bone meal etc as well as milk by products. Another good way is to add about 5% of a good kibble sized dog and/or cat food to your layer ration. While free ranging is good for a chicken (that is if the chickens' owner keeps on top of treating for intestinal parasites) before long most of the wee critters in a small or limited free range environment are consumed by the hens. Then the biggest benefit of free ranging is fresh air, Sunshine, and the exercise or conditioning that your hens get by looking for nonexistent bugs, & dodging hawks and foxes.

If you're talking about Scratch n Peck... you're wrong. The first ingredient is not wheat nor is it "sweepings from the factory floor". How do i know the huge commercial layer feed productions aren't exactly as you had mentioned?

Nor does it have raisins. It has fish meal instead of soy as a protein source and as far as vitamins/minerals and added "supplements", well so do the commercially produced non-organic layer pellets.

Yes i do understand the benefits and limitations of free range and was pretty aghast to see some posters say that they don't provide their chickens food beyond what they get free range. I wouldn't add commercial dog or cat food either but that is my preference.

 

[chickengeorgeto]

.... Every year the FDA's pesticide requirements get stricter and stricter. Pesticides get safer and safer....

As to the issue of "superweeds," every method of controlling weeds produces weeds resistant to that method - it's basic evolution - which is why farmers rotate crops, and rotate pesticides - something that the organic farmers often don't do - they just keep spraying NEEM, or keep spraying d-limenone, or rotenone (which is toxic as all heck).

Farmers love glysophate because it is highly effective, actually kills weeks instead of just burning their foliage like some of the organic control methods, and is drastically safer than previous generations of pesticides.

Not trying to get caught up in an unwinnable debate despite all the facts that are on Crazy Talk's side of this issue, glysophate or RoundUp is technically not even a poison but instead it is a plant hormone that causes a green plant to turn its biological function on high and grow its self to death. The reason some people are so dead set against RoundUp is because it was first developed and manufactured by a successful highly visible corporation, Monsanto inc and the far Left in Europe wanted an American or US company to single out and vilify mostly for European far left consumption. In this respect Monsanto including RoundUp and the companies GMOs are now treated by the US and European far left like a Right Wing fundamentalist preacher looks at gay marriage. Not with understanding or even through a clear lens but through a distorting prism, a prism btw that is only designed to produce the image that fits the onlookers' preconceived prejudices.

 

[Chris09]

If you're talking about Scratch n Peck... you're wrong. The first ingredient is not wheat nor is it "sweepings from the factory floor". How do i know the huge commercial layer feed productions aren't exactly as you had mentioned?

Nor does it have raisins. It has fish meal instead of soy as a protein source and as far as vitamins/minerals and added "supplements", well so do the commercially produced non-organic layer pellets.

Yes i do understand the benefits and limitations of free range and was pretty aghast to see some posters say that they don't provide their chickens food beyond what they get free range. I wouldn't add commercial dog or cat food either but that is my preference.

The first ingredient of Scratch N Peck Soy/Corn free feed is Wheat, it uses Pea's, Linseed Meal and Camelina Meal to replace the proteins of Soybean Meal. The Fish Meal is less than 10% probably closer to 5 or 6 percent, not all that much animal proteins.

 

[Cindy in PA]

You sure seem you be a fan of GMOs, so more power to ya! The only thing is, as I have stated before these plants don't always grow better etc. Why are we going to now have 2-4-D back in the mix etc.? Because weeds have become immune to Roundup in two decades & that is NOT a long time! We always are looking for a panacea and guess what, it doesn't exist! Same for the public's use of antibiotics, we got them & cured many things, then we overused them & now we have antibiotic resistant germs. A little moderation in all things is good! It's not so one sided in real life. JMHO

Believe whatever you want - the science says otherwise.

GMOs are more prevalent because they grow better, cost less to grow, and use less fertilizer and pesticides. They're a very useful tool in the farmer's toolbelt.

 

[Cindy in PA]

No, they're not.

Every year the FDA's pesticide requirements get stricter and stricter. Pesticides get safer and safer. Agent Orange hasn't been used in 40 years, and the fact that you're even mentioning it just shows that you don't understand the issue. Stop spreading ignorant FUD.

As to the issue of "superweeds," every method of controlling weeds produces weeds resistant to that method - it's basic evolution - which is why farmers rotate crops, and rotate pesticides - something that the organic farmers often don't do - they just keep spraying NEEM, or keep spraying d-limenone, or rotenone (which is toxic as all heck).


Farmers love glysophate because it is highly effective, actually kills weeks instead of just burning their foliage like some of the organic control methods, and is drastically safer than previous generations of pesticides.

Farmers here do rotate crops............one year RR soybeans & one year RR corn. 2,4-D, one part of Agent Orange is going to be sprayed in the near future if they approve the new resistant crops. Yes we went to the "safer" ???? Roundup & now we need something stronger so we are going back to 2,4-D etc. The public was sold on Roundup, because it replaced the other "toxic" herbicides.

Not sure where you get your knowledge of organic farming, but that is NOT how a real organic farmer would farm. Maybe it is Big Ag's version of organic, however no one who has practiced organic farming or gardening before the government let big profits top benefits farm the way you claim. That is why you have to know your source. Big Ag took a product like BT that would be used on an as needed basis & stuck it in corn which will virtually render it useless. Don't know why you dislike organic & non GMO so much, but it is about choice!

 

[CrazyTalk]

Cindy, stop spreading the FUD. Stop fear mongering.

"2-4D is a an ingredient in Agent Orange" is a statement that has no use other than scaring people meaninglessly. Water is also an ingredient in Agent Orange, but that doesn't mean we should be scared of it. What made Agent Orange so toxic was that it was supposed to have 2,4,5-T, but was contaminated with 2,3,7,8-tetrachlorodibenzodioxin (TCDD).


I don't like dislike Organic, what I dislike is how often people pushing their Organic agenda resort to scare tactics, resort to misinformation, and resort to appeals to emotion and ignorance. What I dislike is how often they have no idea what the science actually says, and how often they push the "natural" choice over the safe one.