Fermenting Feed for Meat Birds

[shadowmane]

In another thread, Beekissed mentioned fermenting whole grains and feeding it to broilers as an alternate way to get them to slaughter size. It would be nice if Beekissed would expound on that here. Following is part of a post that he put in that other thread:


Quote Beekissed:
I'm very interested in this (and so is my wife) because we have discovered fermenting foods, and the nutritional value they have. Now I hear that it can be done with chickens and I'm a little excited.

 

[Beekissed]

I'm going to move this info from the second thread over to this one....

This will not be the first time I've fed fermented feeds to my chickens...just the first time I fermented their grain-based feeds. In the past I've always kept unpasteurized ACV(with the mother intact) in their water and have also fed them fermented pumpkins in late winter/early spring.

This year, though, I happened to become curious about the health benefits of feeding them to the meaties in order to get more bang for my buck and also to keep them from having the smelly, diarrhea poops that are characteristic for these birds.

Here are some of the articles I found that were helpful...it is a lot of information through which to sift, but there are gold nuggets in that thar stream...

http://www.ajol.info/index.php/ajb/article/viewFile/60378/48610

http://www.pjbs.org/ijps/fin640.pdf

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19373724

Last but not least...ACV info~interesting stuff if you take it further and research the benefits of the bacteria therein:

http://silvalab.fsnhp.msstate.edu//vinegar_lactic.pdf

Of course, I knew little of fermenting grains, so I just had to start it somewhere....and it turned out much easier than I suspected. I haven't been doing it long enough and on enough birds to give good, solid results and I'm hoping to hear from others who can but I can tell you what I have seen thus far.

Anyone doing it? That would be me!

How long have you been doing it? For some time but this is the first time doing it with the base feed ration of grains.

Your methods? Right now I'm just using non-medicated chick starter for 54 meaties and one young WR roo. My methods consist of two 5 gal. buckets sitting one within the other. The top bucket has small holes drilled in the bottom and sides to form a sieve(this will come in handy later when I ferment whole grains and want to drain off the fermented water).

Add chick starter, water, a glug or two of the UP/ACV for a starter culture and stir. Wait until the next day and stir some more, try to keep the whole mix moist to promote the fermentation process. You ought to smell a slight sour smell and see bubbles rising in the mash...when you smell and see this, you have active fermentation going on.

If you don't have anything to jump start this mix, as long as you keep it at room temp and let the air into it, it should form it's own cultures within 24 hours and they will grow stronger the longer they are allowed to "cook" or "work"...think sourdough bread starter when you picture what it looks and smells like.

I don't empty the water off this mix and the water lying in the bottom of the bucket sieve system is holding all the strong cultured growth of good bacteria, so when I add water it mixes with it and rises up past the grain in the top bucket to saturate the whole mix. This reusing the cultures from the old water is called back-slopping and it will make your fermentation quicker and stronger and also give you a heavier growth of good bacteria.

I also give UP/ACV in all their water.


Grains/feeds used in this manner? Right now, the chick starter, but when it is done(#50 bag), I'll switch to cracked corn, barley and wheat grains. I'll venture to say they will probably have to ferment a little longer then the fine starter crumbles.

Your overall review of this method of feeding? So far, I find it easy to do, a little messier than regular feeding when dealing with chicks and chick-height feeders but will soon be able to use it in feeders that can be elevated and not trampled in.

I also am very pleased to see that my CX chicks have perfect little formed poops instead of their usual yellow, frothy, stinky squirts so typical of the breed. Their brooder has no bad smells, the chicks are eating the feed well and are growing quickly. They don't seem to need to drink as often as when they first arrived and I attribute this to two reasons: 1. They are being fed moist feed. 2. They are not dehydrated by having liquid~ and frequent~ poops.

The WR roo was a gift and arrived a few days ago..he is probably 5 mo. old. He seemed reluctant to eat the mix and acted like he was eating poop or something the first few times he ate it.

Now he seems to have developed quite a taste for it and is cleaning his plate well! His feces have improved in color, texture and odor also since he first arrived.

Only time will tell how this feeding method pans out but I'm willing to try it and see. I am doing this to improve bird health and performance and to gain more feed efficacy, thus spending less money on feed costs.

 

[Beekissed]

I wish I could but I don't measure out feed...never have. I use a standard feed scoop that you can buy anywhere and I just shovel the feeder full of an amount that I've seen my chicks clean up well before the next feeding time comes along. Of course, this varies as their needs change, so I just adjust as I go along.

That's the advice I give all newer chicken keepers...always be assessing the flock's needs and changing things up as you go along. Standard amounts and standard schedules for feeding are like standard education....it only works for a standard person..or chicken, in this case. Each bird is an individual and each flock has its own flow....I could no more tell you what amount to feed your birds than I could tell you what to wear outside in the merry month of March on any given day!

Pardon me whilst I pull out my soapbox...<pulls out one very sturdy and badly worn box>

I've noticed that quite a bit on this forum...lots of folks out there wanting to standardize chicken husbandry with X amount of this nutrient or that vitamin in a certain ratio in the feed and wanting this to be the "best" nutrition for flocks. (But scientists and the USDA says it is supposed to BE that way, don't they???

) Every flock is different, live in different situations, produce at different rates...and that's okay. It's okay to not know exactly what to give and when because, if your flock is normal, those variables are constantly changing.

The real adventure of raising chickens is that change and constant learning curve...there shouldn't really be anything too hard about it. If you can raise and feed kids, chickens are a snap! How do you know if kids are getting the right foods and care? Same way you can tell if a chicken is...are they bright-eyed, active, healthy and have good appetites? Yes? Then you're on the right path.

Raising chickens is supposed to be fun, so if any of you are out there reading books or this forum and feel yourself getting confused or anxious about all the information you are trying to absorb~just stop and think a minute....people in very primitive cultures have been keeping chickens since time began and doing it quite well or there wouldn't be a chicken left for us to obsess over. Get over it, take a deep breath and just enjoy the process.

There! That's my very small two pennies!

 

[galanie]

Making your own ACV is child's play. Of course you'll need a start of it by getting Braggs or similar. Or if you want to wait for 3-6 months you don't but... Best juice to use is frozen apple juice WITHOUT added calcium. It's ok if it has the "Added Vitamin C" but not the calcium. Just mix up the frozen juice, glugg in some Braggs, cover with coffee filter (held by a rubber band) and sit the whole works in the pantry for a month. Only use a glass or ceramic jar. You'll end up with a slimy layer on top that is tan to cream colored. That is the real "mother." You can taste it with a straw or with litmus paper to see if it's done yet.

Take out the slimy thing and plop it into the next batch instead of glugging in Braggs and you're off and running.

PS - there are more than one reason why the frozen juice is best, the main one for me being that it's only going to cost you $2 a gallon that way if you get the generic. But besides that, the frozen is not pasteurized and so the enzymes you need to make the ACV are still present.

 

[shadowmane]

My wife recommends "Nourishing Traditions" by Sally Fallon. That's where she learned everything about fermenting. She has all kinds of recipes on fermenting grains, fruits, vegetables and beverages. However, new research has come out since her book was published that some of the methods in her book are not sufficient for breaking down phytic acid in grains. I have seen her make home-made yogurt to get her whey.

 

[shadetech]

 

[7acres]

When the feathers start to fly
And through the dust it’s hard to see
Folks get on the fermented thread
And then they write to Bee

Help me with my chickens
I don’t know what to do
Just calm down child and listen
To what Bee is telling you

Her advice is sound and practical
Like reading scripture verse
Cause she knows what she is saying
She is the chicken nurse

I brought a little chicken home
And I just cannot win
I now have a rooster
And I wanted a hen

Bee’s advice would be
I think like as not
Butcher that little rascal
And put him in the pot!

My chicken’s vent is nasty
And I don’t want to wipe her
Is it o.k. for me
To put her in a diaper

Bee said don’t be silly
She can’t live like that
Just wash her little backside
And give it a loving pat

I have a big old chicken
What it is I do not know
It lays a double yoker
And then it starts to crow

Bee said that is something
For that chicken people will beg
It‘s not very often your alarm clock
Lays your breakfast egg

What do I feed my chicken
Tell me what to do
Who has the answer
Bee, we know it is you

 

[Beekissed]

Here are some thoughts....

All grains are pretty much from a different source and type...I'm sure I'm not using the same grains that folks on here are using. The composition of certain grains are the same pretty much the world over with minimal differences. Corn is pretty much corn the world over and the same with barley, wheat, soy, etc. It pretty much has the same nutrition, no matter what the type and I'm sure the differences are minimal.

Research is research, if it is done in an approved and scientific manner, and I can't see anything in these experiments that indicates the results weren't obtained in a controlled manner. American agricultural research if often slanted somewhat to advocate for commercial ag biz and this research seems to be looking for ways to actually cut grain usage instead of using more.

If this were research done on some disease and I was using the results on my own children...well..I just may give some pause and consider the research sources and do a more determined search for more studies done....but this is chickens and they cost me $1.20 per chick. I think I'll take the risk on losing some money here. There are folks on here who build $1200 coops for 3 chickens, so in the broad scheme of things, I think my risk is minimal compared....

I try to keep an open mind about these things as well and nothing makes me happier than actually applying the things I read and learn about to see if I get similar results. I'll take that risk just to learn and grow!

 

[Beekissed]

One thing I've noticed about everyone's results in using the FF is that they all note the lack of bad smells in the coop/bedding. That is a great side effect of using the FF, but I think it's important to mention that it is merely a side effect and the physiology behind why it is happening is a much more important and desirable goal.

This means that there is better bowel health due to more villi being present in the bowel. More villi means more blood supply, which means better nutrient absorption from the available feeds passing through the small intestine. The fermentation of the feed before consumption also changes some of the feed ingredients, allowing it to be digested and absorbed by a monogastric animal such as a chicken. This means that the food is being used instead of passing through the bowel underutilized. This means the bird is getting more from the feed and this results in less overall feed being fed or needed. This translates into saving pennies that grow into dollars over the long haul.

The introduction of good cultures also helps inhibit the overgrowth of more harmful pathogens such as salmonella, coccidia, e.coli, etc. This means your chickens have better health overall.

Another good side effect of having this healthier bowel structure, blood supply, and good bacteria is a decrease in parasite infestation. The more digestive enzymes and better digestive action is prohibitive to the growth and production of intestinal parasites. They thrive better in an unhealthy bird with an unhealthy bowel.

This is important to know when you are thinking of de-worming your chickens: One has to ask themselves, how did my chicken's health get to such a state that it has an infestation? Take care of that problem and the other problem~visible worms being shed in the feces~will right itself. All mammals have a parasite present in their bodies/bowels, but you will rarely see evidence of it in the fecal matter unless there is an overgrowth. When is the last time you looked in your toilet and saw long, white worms in the poop? This does not mean you have no worms, it merely means you have them but you are not infested with a large population of them.

Same with chickens. It's expected that chickens will have some level of intestinal parasites, but never enough to affect their health or production. All animals have them and they thrive anyway. The key is not to try to get all the worms out of your chickens~if the conditions are that lovely, they'll just be back. Rather, the goal should be to create such a healthy chicken that the worms can not get a foothold inside them and colonize enough to cause problems.

FF has so many benefits that I can really see no down side to it and I know that the decreased smell of the feces is the most obvious, but that lack of smell is just a sign of the many other benefits of this method of feeding.

 

[pigeonguy]

Good enough! As usual, thanks!

Now, I DO put BOSS in their FF, but it isn't a lot.

To give you an idea of my current blend, I mix 1.5 (red plastic Folgers) coffee cans of wild game feed, 1 16 ounce butter dish of whole oats, 1 16 ounce butter dish of scratch, and about a half a butter dish of BOSS together into the bucket each day. There is always already some FF in the bucket because I keep mine going perpetually, but that is what gets added back in each day. (*ETA - and I add a glug of ACV whenever I see fit)


Oh, and I read the 'recipe' Al uses for his birds and will probably add oil to my regime - should I add THAT to the FF, or just top-dress with it on occasion?

Hey Bee, if you had a sack of blood meal and a sack of bone meal you wanted to use up, how would you use them as a supplement in your feed so that it was good for the chickens? I noticed in the OT thread that you mentioned TOO much protein at a time is NOT good for the chickens. I want to use it up, and boosting the protein content in the chicken feed IS a good use for it, I just don't want to much of a good thing at once.

Also, would you put it IN the FF as it is 'cooking' or would you top-dress your feed with it when you fed? If you add it to the feed, how much and how often would you add to a 2 gallon bucket of feed, and if you top-dress with it, how much and how often would you sprinkle on a 5ft. trough that was full?

Lots of questions, I know.

I appreciate any/all thoughts you have on this.

Thanks
Maven

Guess I'll start with protein.
1.5 / 3 lb coffee cans (or 72 ounces) wild game feed = 9 parts @ 25% protein.
1 / 16 ounce butter dish whole oats = 2 part @ 12% protein.
1 / 16 ounce butter dish scratch grains = 2 part @ 7% protein
.5 / 16 ounce butter dish (or 8 ounces) = 1 part @ 10% protein


9 x 25 = 225% protein
2 x 12 = 24% protein
2 x 7 = 14% protein
1 x 10 = 10% protein
_______________
14 parts / 273% protein = 19.5% protein in current feed depending on the actual amount of protein in your wild game feed and scratch I took a guess at those but should be close.
Now for the bone meal that's 50% protein you could go with a less % protein on the wild game feed say to 16% that might make it wild game feed anymore but still poultry feed.
Now use the same parts as above and add 2 parts bone meal that's 1 / 16 ounce butter dish and that will give you 18.25% protein or if you add 3 parts bone meal it would be 20.1% protein.
Now do understand to be real accurate these parts need to be weighed so it would look like this
4.5 lbs feed
2 lbs oats
2 lbs scratch
1 lb boss
2 or 3 lbs bone meal depending on protein value you want.
The reason I did this was if you buy a 16% feed instead of 25% it would probably save you money on feed cost.
Now on to the blood meal. I personally would use it in the garden to keep unwanted pest out. That is because it is said that it is not very palatable and would not want to take the chance of making the feed to were they don't want to eat it. Plus the fact that I keep it on hand to keep the rabbits and ground hogs out of the garden and would not want to waste it in the chickens.
Hope this helps with your decision and yes BOSS is only 10% protein a lot of people have the misconception its higher but it is only 10% it is high in fat though and that is why we should watch how much we feed. I think any of the recipes above are fine though.
And just or the record I was going to do this last night when I noticed the post but just as I hit submit the internet went out and I lost it all.