Help! Our ordinance is being voted on Tuesday, help us counter these arguments

[joestahl]

Good ideas, I'll definitely point out that dogs and cats can spread diseases also. And that the precautions for preventing transmittal are basically the same as for preventing salmonella.

 

[Mtn Laurel]

Wow. Just wow. They're a little over-the-top about the salmonella thing, IMO.

That wonderful chicken you buy packaged at the grocery store can also carry salmonella. That's why it's recommended that you wash your hands, the cutting board, and your counter after prepping a chicken for the oven. Guess no more Sunday chicken dinners or Thanksgiving turkeys, huh?

Unpasteurized eggs can also carry salmonella. Are there any farmers markets selling fresh eggs? Same thing.

Attract mice? Improperly stored feed can certainly attract mice but chickens are omnivore's and any mice are likely to become lunch.

Studies show that fermented feed somewhat reduces the occurrence of salmonella. Seems that the fermented feed makes the chicken a less desirable host for the illness: http://www.poultryscience.org/ps/paperpdfs/03/p0340603.pdf

Wonder if they would be more inclined to pass the ordinance if it also included development of a local organization to educate/promote healthy raising of chickens? Of course, were you to mention such you may just end up having to organize it. Yikes!

Can they provide you with any evidence of increased illness, documented cases of salmonella transmitted via backyard flocks in any of the numerous regions that now allow poultry as pets? They should at least be able to back up their claims that incidence of disease increases when laws allowing poultry are passed.

Good luck and let us know how it goes!

 

[bruceha2000]

Can they provide you with any evidence of increased illness, documented cases of salmonella transmitted via backyard flocks in any of the numerous regions that now allow poultry as pets? They should at least be able to back up their claims that incidence of disease increases when laws allowing poultry are passed.

No much time to gather that, but good point. I don't recall EVER seeing an article in the paper talking about problems, health, noise or otherwise with regard to backyard chickens.

Better make sure no one grows spinach in their garden, they might get E coli like has happened with big farm supplied spinach.

Anyone ever see "investigate chicken" on a list of police calls? I've seen "investigate barking dog".

Tell them if they don't allow chickens, with common restrictions, they should outlaw dogs.

Bruce

 

[Sonoran Silkies]

All recent reported cases of salmonella come from egg factory farms, not those who keep small backyard flocks. Is it possible? Sure, but far less likely. NPIP testing could confirm that a flock is salmonella free. (Not that I personally would want to see that listed as a requirement for having a backyard flock.)

Virtually all possible nuisances are probably already covered under other nuisance ordinances. Including the noise that a rooster makes when it crows. Point them out one by one as the objection is raised that the nuisance is already covered.

Dog/cat food left out can attract rodents and other pest animals just as much or more than chicken feed. If/when that has a ruling is when chicken feed left out should have a ruling. Same with cat/dog waste.

 

[rikithemonk]

Update please.



Also, Just so you aren't surprised. The guy against you, researched you.

He knew your facebook page and also most likely knows about backyard chickens. Nothing you post "here" will surprise him. Expect him to have counters to all the suggestions posted here. You have to bring your A game. My bet is that he is an attorney.

Just my two cents.

Riki

 

[bruceha2000]

Nothing you post "here" will surprise him. Expect him to have counters to all the suggestions posted here. You have to bring your A game. My bet is that he is an attorney.

That would be an interesting thing to know. My limited "interactions" with lawyers who want (or DON'T) something is that they bounce between tiny obscure points of law and generalizations, half truths, objecting to anything that is against their desire, veiled bullying with their knowledge of the law which is not generally known by "the common man". The heck with "The truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth".

I'm sure that is not representative of ALL lawyers. But jokes usually have a root in reality:
Q: What is the difference between a skunk in the road and a lawyer in the road?
A: People try to miss the skunk.

Bruce

 

[chickortreat]

There are a LOT of misconceptions people have about chickens. But that is what happens when the bulk of our population doesn't participate in any food cultivation. Last year after a tornado, a landscaping company was cutting up downed trees in my neighborhood and someone stoped by my house to see if we needed their services. He naturally noticed a few chickens in my yard. When i opened the door, the gentlemen saw i was caucasion and exclaimed "You live here with chickens? Why are you living like a mexican?".

Good post! I daresay the majority of the population is too stupid to pour water from a boot with the instructions on the bottom of the boot. Were it not so, we would not see the onslaught of ignorant laws/ordinances that we have in this country. That, coupled with the fact that we live amongst a generation of boot-lickers.

As to the "gentleman" who asked why you were "living like a Mexican", I'd reply, "Why is blood streaming from your nose?" There are some things you just don't do, like walk up to someone's door and insult them. To do so carries a price. And were said price exacted more often, less ignorance would be manifested.

 

[rikithemonk]

Quote: Your assuming that these laws are accidental or unintentional. Its my personal belief that these laws are intentional and designed to prevent people from being able to grow their own food. I believe they intend to use the food supply as a means of control.

Look what happened in New york. When the hurricane hit, and no one showed up for days, people did their own food kitchens to feed those without food, water or power. What did the government do? They stepped in, closed it down and confiscated the supplies.

Riki

 

[aschm01]

Show that this individual is highlighting a more biased version of the CDC article. He leaves out the reasonable measures the CDC offers to counter the risk. Use direct quotes of the same reference materials and show how they support your position. For example I pulled this from one of the links the CDC provided.

"Many Salmonella infections occur in people who have contact with certain types of animals -- what I refer to as "risky" pets. These include reptiles, such as turtles, snakes, or lizards; amphibians, especially frogs; poultry, including chicks, chickens, and ducklings; and rodents, such as hamsters. Infected animals can appear happy, healthy, and clean and still be sheddingSalmonella or other zoonotic pathogens that can lead to human illness."

Ok, now based on direct quotes ask your council if they think it's reasonable to allow these other pets while not allowing reasonable, small numbers of hens for backyard hobbyists. If the lawyer guy says, well those pets are not exposed to innocent neighbors, but chickens live outside. Then ask, well, if those other pets carry salmonella and live in minor children's bedrooms... which the CDC says you specifically should not do with poultry, how is it reasonable that they are allowed at all? but you need to shift your councils attention off the salmonella and on to the health benefits and food security benefits of having backyard flocks.... and what rights they are trampling all over by not allowing them.

From a council's view, showing how other municipalities have safely included reasonable rules such as the rules your ordinance is proposing, and succeeded should help.

I know I have used that word reasonable a lot... but it is a very common and effective legal term... and yes, not a member of any state bar, but I am a J.D.

Good luck and best wishes!!

 

[bruceha2000]

Show that this individual is highlighting a more biased version of the CDC article. He leaves out the reasonable measures the CDC offers to counter the risk.

If the lawyer guy says......... and yes, not a member of any state bar, but I am a J.D.

Takes one to know one, right?

The first line I quoted is exactly the "behavior" I have seen. My mother called that "lying by omission". And lying is lying. I wish the law said you HAVE to give ALL the facts, not just the ones you like and hope no one knows the rest and has no time to find out that there IS "the rest".

I am hoping the OP will come back and let us know what happened, the meeting was almost a week ago. If the council fell for the opposition's half truth arguments, the OP and others requesting the allowance of backyard chickens should be able to appeal. However that might involve some costs even if they don't hire a lawyer if, like VT, the appeal goes to a court. Might be better to wait a bit and start funneling info to the councilers. Once they see their error, the group can bring it back for a reconsideration.

Bruce