Help with finding the right food for dogs LONG

[scbatz33]

Quote:

I can't see what paying $40+ a 20lb bag is so great for. I have checked all the costs and to feed my 4 dogs that stuff I'd be homelss in a very short time. It's actually cheaper for me to feed a raw diet.

I actually have started the true raw diet - meat, bone, organs. It's been a couple days and honest injun, I have already noticed a change in our older two dogs. They are both more energetic, they rush to mealtime and they EAT without turning their nose up!!!

Since I raise chickens and have a ready source there, the cost of feeding them raw won't be much more than what I'm paying a month now for dry. With the added benefit of my dogs' happiness. I dont' expect my chow to not be arthritic or the allergies to be magically cured, but if it makes him feel better than I'm all for it.

Besides, I have been lable reading for months now trying to find food that he will eat and is not full of grains and chemicals and I have not suceeded. And what exactly is Guar gum, Xanthan gum and Carageenan anyway???

These are in the "least" processed canned food I could find.

 

[Stina]

1 nutrition course is required in the first year of vet school...it is a 1 semester long course and it is sponsored by Hill's and Purina. Vet students can get free or highly discounted food from Hill's, Purina, and Iams. The text book we had for our course was written by people at Hill's I believe.

Most vets discourage raw and other homemade diets not because they believe they are bad for dogs....but b/c they are taught in that 1 nutrition course that you can't trust people to formulate them properly and its easier (and less likely to cause a lawsuit) to just recommend kibble. However, more and more newer vets are seeing through the kibble goggles and realizing that the classic kibbles may not be the best option and vet schools are starting to include some more information about other diets.

Kibble has only been around for ~60 years...and I have met the man who "invented" the extrusion process for it...he was alive and somewhat working just a few years ago when I was in undergrad. Dogs have not been eating kibble for hundreds of years....historically dogs ate scraps and whatever they caught themselves...they would not have been getting grains as a majority of their diet. Dogs never used to have so many allergy problems and used to live longer before traditional high grain kibble came along. Kibble is a commodity of convenience...not quality.

There is a reason that more and more corn, wheat, soy, and grain-free diets keep popping up.....its not a fad, its because 1. Manufacturers are finding a way to make food with less and no grain. 2. People are realizing that the classic kibble diet is not even close to what dogs have eaten historically. 3. Studies are being done on the effects of grain in a dog's diet that are showing negative effects. I fail to see how science is a fad.

 

[Brindlebtch]

OK. Let's look at your post.

You were taught during 1 semester in college that a grain based kibble was the way to go by lobbyists that were essentially trying to get their foot in the door early.

I'm sure the representatives of grain based kibble companies will tell you that the formulation of their kibble is based on *good research and science*.

Science is often wrong. OR science will treat one theory as fact until a *better* theory comes along, and then they change their minds and adopt the new theory as more or less fact. So the former theory is essentially a fad or fashion.

However, more and more newer vets are seeing through the kibble goggles and realizing that the classic kibbles may not be the best option

OK. Perhaps the classic kibbles are now a passing fashion? Even though they were based on *good science and research*.

Most vets discourage raw and other homemade diets not because they believe they are bad for dogs....but b/c they are taught in that 1 nutrition course that you can't trust people to formulate them properly and its easier (and less likely to cause a lawsuit) to just recommend kibble

The above sentence doesn't speak very well of vets or how they view their clients.

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Kibble has actually been available for about 100 years because a few manufacturers started baked kibble around that time. Large companies did not start mass marketing kibble until post WWII. So yes, mass market kibble has been around for about 60 years.

Dogs have not been eating kibble for hundreds of years

Don't be patronizing.

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Historically I agree that dogs have been fed scraps. What would the historical US kitchen have had for scraps? I'm talking pre-WWII and not thousands of years ago. Say for example, since 1850.

Pre-WWII the average US population did not eat the quantity of meat that we eat today. If the average person did have meat very little went to their dogs and that which did was not fit for human consumption unless the family lived well above middle class and the dog was especially favored.

Hunting dogs were fed the offal from the game they hunted. This includes whatever the game ate. Remember most organ meat was/is saved to make sausage, chitlins, scrapple, brain sandwiches, etc.

The average pet would have gotten things like old biscuits, bread, vegetable and fruit peelings and scraps, beans, gravy, soured dairy, some meat fat or offal, oatmeal and the like. Left over soup or stew, perhaps. Not a meat heavy diet. The VAST majority of protein of any quality went to humans. The marrow in bones was used for stocks and soups and the like. The dog probably got the bone sans marrow. Most people in the US at the time did not have the means or desire to feed their dog better.

If the dog could or was allowed to hunt on its own I'm sure it would augment its diet with some small game. Oh yeah, and the ol' egg suckin' hound.
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Dogs never used to have so many allergy problems

This is probably caused by many more factors than just food. Perhaps dogs have become allergic to certain foods. I expect some of this has to do with damaged immune systems from over vaccination. With pure breds at least some allergy problems have come from inbreeding or small gene pools leading to inadequate
immune systems.

But, obviously, dogs also must live in our environment and human allergies and asma, etc have gone way up. Our air and soil and the food we eat have never been more contaminated. So a toxic environment could also cause the immune system to weaken.

and used to live longer before traditional high grain kibble came along.

This I take exception to. Dogs that caught rats and squirrels died of lepto. Most of the dogs in the South caught heartworms. Rabies, parvo, distemper, internal parasites and fleas. Tick born diseases.
I do not feel the average life span of a dog pre-WWII exceeded that of today. At least their life span did not exceed those of my dogs - 15 was still considered a very old dog.

Also, people's views of dogs have changed over time. Pre-WWII I think people were probably less likely to take a dog to the vet and quicker to put them down, if for nothing else that money and resource issues.

Kibble is a commodity of convenience...not quality.

I agree with this.

1. Manufacturers are finding a way to make food with less and no grain.

I believe manufacturers have found out that people are willing to pay for food with no grain.

2. People are realizing that the classic kibble diet is not even close to what dogs have eaten historically.

Well of course not. It is WAY processed. People are suffering from this also.

3. Studies are being done on the effects of grain in a dog's diet that are showing negative effects.

I'm sure there are. I'm sure Purina and Hill's have done studies to show grain doesn't hurt a thing. Probably just depends on whose studies you choose to believe.

I fail to see how science is a fad.

A significant - I am not saying majority or even 30%, just significant - amount of science is flat out wrong. Science and research are done by humans who are, by definition, flawed.
Data is ignored or worse falsified. This has been in the news recently. Scientist's are worse than bathing beauties as far as egos go. Science ignores significant natural phenomena because they can't explain it. If they can't explain it, it must not exist. For example: The guys that did the first successful cold fusion experiment were vilified to the point that they still hide from the public. Now 'science' is starting to think they might have just been right.

There are many many examples of the shortcomings of science. I could go on but I bet EVERYBODY got really heartily sick of this a long long time ago.

How about we both just cool our jets.

And yes, of course you are free to express you opinion, just like everybody else.

 

[NotTheMomma]

My dogs LOVE the chicken soup for dog lovers. I had two beagles (one died last year) that were both allergic to corn, so needed to find something they could eat. Surprisngly every bag of feed sold locally had corn as the first or second ingredient! It took MONTHS of searching the shelves to find a food I can afford, as well as what suits our needs.

Science diet (though my VET sells it) is awful food! CORN< CORN< CORN! Ugh! Big price, that makes people feel better because they're spending more, and JUNK of a food. I'm trying my hardest to get the vet to stop selling the crap, and having it displayed in the office makes everyone assume he is promoting it, and it must be the greatest! Truth be told, he does NOT feed it to his own animals! Though of course he gets a percentage of all sales, and it makes for sick animals as he is benefiting all around from it!

I have a mini dashie with severe mega esophagus. She is VERY picky eater as well. She has always been teeny tiny, due to the breeder not realizing she had a problem, and LuLu wasn't able to really eat for 5 weeks!!! She has problems with low blood sugar as well, mostly due to not being able to eat enough at once. She is 18 months now, and weighs almost 7 lbs. With her, I admit to not buying bags of dog food. Weekly I visit the pet store, and get samples of dog food. It takes her two to three DAYS to eat a sample baggie of food. By the time she's finished one bag, she won't touch it again for a week or so. I found when I bought her bags of food, it went stall before she ate it. I've tried feeding canned, and she will NOT eat any brand of canned food. Won't eat any brand of dry food that has been wettened (which she needs to due to the esophagus!!!) So she eats a few bites of kibble throughout the day, and thus has learned to keep herself from throwing up, or worsening the esophagus! She never, ever eats but a few pieces of food at a time. Though in 30 mins or an hour she'll be back for a few more pieces. Keeps the blood sugar on a constant level, and works for her. Might not work for someone else's dog though!

Anyway, all that to say.... I do avoid feeds that mainly use corn. After that, I feel they are on equal playing fields. You'll be surprised how many brands are made of CORN and CORN MEAL!

 

[ozflock]

Quote:
Excellent point, Brindle. Labs are notorious for thyroid problems.

I feed mine raw and have for quite a few years now. It really isn't too expensive for me. My budget is $1 lb maximum, for the meat and if I had hunters in the family like you do, Cheif's Mess, then it would be a lot cheaper. You don't, by chance, live anywhere near me, do you....?

However, I also, know a cat rescue lady who's personal cats lived for years and they were fed whatever was on sale. My friend, the dog groomer, has 8 shop cats that get fed whatever is on sale, too, and they're all healthy geriatrics. My point is that these two ladies both believe that by switching the food constantly (mainly for economic reasons) the cats seem to get all their nutritional requirements met. What one food lacks the next one makes up for. Maybe there is something to be said for that. Perhaps that will work for dogs, too.

Keep up updated, please. Lots of good info is coming from this thread.

Here, here.
I agree with switching foods.
My dogs thrive on Variety!
They get a combination of scraps, including cooked and raw fruits and vegetables, raw and cooked meat, raw bones, canned fish, essential fats and oils, eggs both cooked or raw, grains and even nuts and seeds.

To make sure they are receiving a balanced diet, from time to time (usually for convenience or a special treat) i include a commercially prepared "nutritionally complete" food either canned "Natures Gift" - which contains little preservatives, plenty of vegetables, grains and visible fat and oil. Or something from the fresh meat cabinet in the supermarket - (i am from Australia ) and we find a variety of "home cooked" type dog and cat foods such as "four legs" meat balls, processed sausage loafs, and raw or cooked meat that has added vitamins and minerals. Only occasionally do they get any kind of dry food.

I am a dog groomer with a diploma in animal science. In my profession i see a LOT of over-weight dogs and dogs with skin problems. I believe that most of those problems are due to the highly processed, preservative and chemical filled "un-natural" foods that are pushed by vets and feed companies.

Heck, the same thing is happening to the human population - we are all victims of Commercialism in one way or another.

Do yourselves and your dogs a favour and eat as much fresh unprocessed natural food as you can find or grow yourselves. Eat and feed a Variety. Also vary the amount, and ingredients according to the daily needs - this includes condition, activity levels, and climate. These things can all change *day by day* and it is NOT natural for a dog (or a human being) to eat the exact same food (or the exact same amount) every single day.

Too much of any one ingredient is actually one of the main causes of food allergies. In the wild, dogs are opportunistic hunters and scavengers eating not only whole animal carcasses that includes feathers, bones, fur, offal and stomach contents (that will nearly always contain grains and vegetable matter (and is often one of the first things eaten btw)) they will also naturally eat fruits, nuts, seeds and some vegetation too. Some days they might be lucky and be able to pig out, other days they will go without - their systems are designd to cope with that (perhaps with the exception of a great dane or a chihuahua?)
In the zoo the large carnivores are not fed at all one day a week because it is believed to be more healthy and natural. Mine also go without from time to time.

To simplify.
If your dog is over-weight FEED HIM LESS.
If your dog is panting on a hot day Don't feed him at all (or give him some fruit or the equivalent of a small salad)
Fats and oils are essential for a healthy skin and coat.
Too much animal protein heats the blood and will make an itchy dog feel worse.

 

[Wifezilla]

In the wild, dogs are opportunistic hunters and scavengers eating not only whole animal carcasses that includes feathers, bones, fur, offal and stomach contents (that will nearly always contain grains

Grains in the wild are seasonal. They are only available in limited amounts in the fall. The large prey a wild canine eats doesn't eat them in large qty....they eat GRASSES. Only domestic cattle eat large amounts of grain.

Now for the rest of this myth...

"Myth: WOLVES INGEST THE STOMACH CONTENTS OF THEIR PREY.

This claim is repeated over and over as evidence that wolves and therefore dogs are omnivores. However, this assumption is just that--an assumption. It is not supported by the evidence available to us, and is therefore false!

Wolves do NOT eat the stomach contents of their prey. Only if the prey is small enough (like the size of a rabbit) will they eat the stomach contents, which just happen to get consumed along with the entire animal. Otherwise, wolves will shake out the stomach contents of their large herbivorous prey before sometimes eating the stomach wall. The following quotations are taken from L. David Mech's 2003 book Wolves: Behavior, Ecology, and Conservation. Mech (and the others who contributed to this book) is considered the world's leading wolf biologist, and this book is a compilation of 350 collective years of research, experiments, and careful field observations. These quotes are taken from chapter 4, The Wolf as a Carnivore.

"Wolves usually tear into the body cavity of large prey and...consume the larger internal organs, such as lungs, heart, and liver. The large rumen [, which is one of the main stomach chambers in large ruminant herbivores,]...is usually punctured during removal and its contents spilled. The vegetation in the intestinal tract is of no interest to the wolves, but the stomach lining and intestinal wall are consumed, and their contents further strewn about the kill site." (pg.123, emphasis added)

"To grow and maintain their own bodies, wolves need to ingest all the major parts of their herbivorous prey, except the plants in the digestive system." (pg.124, emphasis added).

This next quote can be found on the Hunting and Meals page at Kerwood Wildlife Education Center.
"The wolf's diet consists mostly of muscle meat and fatty tissue from various animals. Heart, lung, liver, and other internal organs are eaten. Bones are crushed to get at the marrow, and bone fragments are eaten as well. Even hair and skin are sometimes consumed. The only part consistently ignored is the stomach and its contents. Although some vegetable matter is taken separately, particularly berries, Canis lupus doesn't seem to digest them very well."

From the mouths of the wolf experts themselves, who have observed countless numbers of kills: wolves do NOT eat the stomach contents of their large prey, and are carnivorous animals. Additionally, Neville Buck from the Howletts and Port Lympne Zoological Parks in Kent, England, notes that virtually no small carnivore (which includes varieties of cats, wolves, wild dogs) eat the intestinal contents of their large prey. The contents are spilled in the enclosures and are often rolled in by the animals, but very little is eaten (if any is eaten at all). His observations can be found in Appendix B of Raw Meaty Bones."
http://www.rawfed.com/myths/stomachcontents.html

Too much animal protein heats the blood and will make an itchy dog feel worse.

Got scientific references for this? From my experience, dogs get itchy from eating grains which induce allergic reactions. If anything, they get it when protein is too LOW.​

 

[BlackBart]

Quote:
I agree, what works for one dog might not for another.

Reading a feed bag can be misleading but there are allot of websites that explain how/what the ingredients are listed and why they are in the order they are listed.

Yes yes

I have a question. I heard that the part of the vit E 'mixed tocopherols' used as preservative for kibble can be soy oil. Has anyone else heard this or know if this is true or not?

I don't know but two animal nutritionists told me, from what they were taught, dogs and cats cannot process soy products.

I do know there seems to be allot of problems with horses who are fed extruded feeds that contain various forms of soy. One problem being compromised thyroid function, once the soy laced products are removed the animals improve.
Most Vets don't think there is a correlation between the two but the horse owners do.
Soy is a big business, generates allot of revenue for some.