Homemade feed questions?

[Organic Acres]

Chick n goat:

I use soy bean meal and corn in the winter for additional protein from the soybean meal and additional energy from the corn. this is because in winter here everything is frozen so the chickens can't forage for bugs and other nice stuff to get protein, and because they need more sugar in winter to produce body heat. if you live in a climate where they can forage year round and it never gets cold, then you can use the summer recipe without the soybean meal and added corn. (For layers I mean. If you have broilers, then use the winter recipe because broilers need lots of protein and energy, they grow fast.)

about other vegetables, I give them grated raw potato and beetroot and turnip from time to time, usually only in the winter, as an added source of carbohydrates (energy) and vitamins/minerals. I am pretty sure that they would be ok without that though, as sometimes I didn't bother for even more than a month and they still stayed very healthy, even in the dead of winter.

 

[tnmommy]

I am finding this thread very interesting. I feel so sorry for my chickens since we just can't let them free range here. I bring them clover, dandelions, etc. I want to build them chicken tunnels that can be moved daily and connected to the runs with a pop out door. Until then, I really want to feed them fodder, and I want to give them fodder over the winter. I just don't have a nice sunny window in the winter. Is that necessary? Will a warm room and a nice light bulb suffice?

 

[LindaB220]

I am finding this thread very interesting. I feel so sorry for my chickens since we just can't let them free range here. I bring them clover, dandelions, etc. I want to build them chicken tunnels that can be moved daily and connected to the runs with a pop out door. Until then, I really want to feed them fodder, and I want to give them fodder over the winter. I just don't have a nice sunny window in the winter. Is that necessary? Will a warm room and a nice light bulb suffice?

Love the idea of the tunnels. Also interested in hearing about the warm room and light bulb

 

[Chris09]

Will a warm room and a nice light bulb suffice?

If you have a room that stays around 68 to 70* F you can grow about anything you want including fodder.
As for the lights I would recommend getting 2 shop lights putting them side by side and putting a set of Agrosun bulbs in them.

 

[ChickenCanoe]

I seem to be doing well on the mixture of my part grain, part feed. I ferment it and that bumps up the protein slightly. Still haven't opened my catfish feed yet. Doing well with the gamebird. I've decided to add tumeric to the mix. So many health benefits. Maybe 1-2 T per 5 gallon pail. I'm trying to get my courage up to paint my white pails black and make waterers out of them. I bought the little cup thingys that go on the side. 3 for the 1 in the big coop and 2 cups for the small coop.

The primary protein improvement is to increase its digestibility by decreasing phytic acid rather than actually increasing the protein.

What conflicting information.
I know that there is a ton of information out there some good and some not so good. The one thing that a lot of people forget or just don't know is that chickens eat to fill there caloric needs meaning when that need is met there eating stops weather or not they get all there nutritional needs.

Now before someone comes on and says that I'm downing a homemade feed mix, I'm not.
I'v had poultry and livestock for 30+ years and within those years I have done my fare share of mixing feed from scratch and having a home mix.

Same here, I still do. But the base intake is a nutritionally balanced feed. It's just cheaper for me than buying all those ingredients separately.
I do keep many grains, seeds and legumes for seeding pastures, growing sprouts, fodder and even scratch grains.

Just like everything else in this world, nobody can quite agree on what is best to feed chickens. To some degree, it is about finding what you're comfortable with and what works well for your flock. However Chris09 was spot on about all the add-ons. Suet is basically just fat, which is unnecessary and can cause too much weight gain and high cholesterol. Kielbasa is heavy with preservatives, seasonings, and salt, none of which chickens need. Celery is mostly water and fiber with little nutrient content.

There is nothing wrong with adding scraps and snacks to your birds' diet, but be a little choosy. Fresh, uncooked, unseasoned, nutrient dense foods are the best. Leafy greens, fresh vegetables, fresh meat, etc. are the best sorts of things to give.

I hope we can all agree to disagree. Clearly, what works for one may not be the best for someone else. Furthermore, everyone has their own purposes and goals. Someone that raises meat birds, or replaces their layer flock every couple years needs to think differently than a pet person that will keep their birds for many years or the breeder that keeps the same line for many generations. The latter needs to make sure that nutrition is complete and optimal for good production, hatchability and grow out.

Clearly, if one has plenty of good forage in mild weather, the chickens well glean a fair amount of their nutrition there.
I'm with you on the leafy greens. Some people think that means grass. Grass isn't nearly as helpful as more succulent and nutritious things like the tender leaves of turnip, dandelion, buckwheat, peas etc.

Grower feed is usually about 5% fat and layer feed between 2.5-4% so if one keeps those numbers in mind, they may be able to add some fatty things.

So glad to see other folks thinking that, too. But unfortunately, it's "on the internet, so it must be true".

As much as I like this forum, I agree, as well as the information on the breed selection pages. Everyone can put their 2 cents worth in there regardless of their experience.
Most breeds of chickens are fantastic for one reason or many. Everyone loves their chickens but if someone has only raised 3 breeds of chickens they really don't have much to compare them to. I've raised about 30 breeds but don't consider myself expert enough to comment there. For instance, I've never raised games, silkies, orloffs, cubalayas, fayoumis, etc.. Those are disparate types that I can't comment on.

I just produce my own organic feed. I grow oats, wheat, barley and corn on my field. I buy non-GMO organic soybean meal in blocks of 400 pounds at a time to get it for cheap (this much lasts for a couple of years).

I grind and then mix the oats and wheat and barley together, and I grind the corn so it's in quite big pieces (not ground finely) and then prepare the home mix food in the following way:

broilers:

1 part soybean meal
1 part rough ground corn
3 parts oat/wheat/barley mix (note: I grind this too, but not finely)

this gives me a feed with a high spectrum of minerals and vitamins, and about 25% protein - good for broilers.

laying hens:

the same as above when it's winter, but in summer I don't use soybean meal or corn.

for these girls I have a second feeder of whole grains - again oats and wheat and barley, so that they can eat whole grains or ground grains depending on what they feel like doing.

year round I give all my chickens crushed oyster shells on demand.

my eggs and chicken meat are fabulous, and my chickens are always top notch healthy.

when I buy a laying chicken from a market or sale, they arrive at my farm with faded, off-color wattles and dull looking feathers and demeanor. Within a week or two of eating the food on my farm and ranging on the grass there outside, their wattles invariably become much darker red, their feathers get brighter and stronger, and they really perk up.

this is how I know for sure that my feed program is effective. I would never buy chicken food from a manufacturer, and I really don't understand why everybody does. it's cheaper and better to make your own.

good plan
I'm curious if you breed for replacements and have done so for generations or do you buy replacements?

Most Sunflower seeds are only around 13% to 16% protein which is about the same as some other grain like Steamed Rolled Oats (17% protein), Barley (12% protein) Wheat Midds (18% protein) etc. There Total Digestible Nutrition (TDN) is low at 68% do to the high amount of indigestible fibers. Soaking them over night or two will help with the TDN and still keeping oil content.

X2
hulled will give about 18% and meal is about 40% but the BOSS in the hull is about the same as a whole grain.
It sprouts rapidly so that's an alternative too.

I am finding this thread very interesting. I feel so sorry for my chickens since we just can't let them free range here. I bring them clover, dandelions, etc. I want to build them chicken tunnels that can be moved daily and connected to the runs with a pop out door. Until then, I really want to feed them fodder, and I want to give them fodder over the winter. I just don't have a nice sunny window in the winter. Is that necessary? Will a warm room and a nice light bulb suffice?

fluorescent lamps placed just above the fodder is probably better than light from a window. You need about18 hours of light.

If you have a room that stays around 68 to 70* F you can grow about anything you want including fodder.
As for the lights I would recommend getting 2 shop lights putting them side by side and putting a set of Agrosun bulbs in them.

Good advice. A cheaper alternative that will give good results is to use 'kitchen & bath" lamps. They're much cheaper and still give the red and blue spectrum the plants need. A guy tested all types of fluorescent tubes and got the best results from gro lamps and the K&B lamps.

 

[Organic Acres]

Chicken Canoe, I do breed my own replacements but I also bring in replacements from off-farm from time to time. Breeding my own replacements has been very difficult, as from day old chick to laying hen you need to figure around 5 to 6 months. During 5 to 6 months there are a lot of things that can go wrong, such as crows eating the chicks, fatal illnesses, unexplained disappearances, their mother deciding to stop being their mother before they are old enough to fend for themselves (this happens early in the broody season, when the hen is anxious to go broody again, she will kick her 2 month old chicks out and start laying again, hoping to go broody again in the same year), and other such problems. My survival rate for home-bred checks is dismal, if I want 3 new laying hens I have to let the broody hen hatch at least 12.
Without a broody hen (I have heritage breeds) I won't bother - because the long term survival rate is consistently 0% for incubated chicks. Incubator hatched chicks are weak - and slow in the instinct department - and don't survive in my "hands off approach" management system.

On the other hand, replacement hens bring their own problems along with them, both grown laying hens and also replacement chicks. If you are buying grown hens then sure you get hens that are usually already laying, but if you buy them at a livestock meet you firstly have no idea how old they are (I've been sold hens that died of old age 3 days later, although the seller told me they were young), secondly you don't know what diseases they have (I've had hens drop dead the following day from illnesses that the seller certainly knew the hen had) and these diseases can then spread through your whole flock even if you isolate the new hens for a while, and lastly you can never be sure if the hens you are buying are actually productive because you haven't been able to observe their parents in action. Note that most of these problems can occur with replacement chicks as well, not just with replacement hens.

Personally, I prefer to breed my own replacements whenever possible, but that's only because my kids like seeing baby chicks running around the farm following their mom. At the end of the day I breed replacements and also buy them from off farm.

 

[ChickenCanoe]

I agree with most of what you say. I quit bringing in replacements. Primarily because of disease and the quarantine period. I've been breeding my own of a rare breed for about 4 years. I recently became NPIP certified so bringing in birds is an issue.
I've had good success with both setter raised and incubator/brooder raised. My biggest problem this year has been mink. They grab the chicks right in front of the broody in the middle of the afternoon. Then, if they can find a 1" opening will kill a whole flock in a few minutes.
I went from 8 flocks to 1 in May. I then incubated with a vengeance. I now have about 60 chicks aged from a week to 4 months. Last week a mink squeezed in and killed my 5 oldest chicks (POL October) and 4 younger chicks before I stopped the slaughter. (thanks to the baby monitor in the coop).

The reason I asked about breeding with those that make their own feed is that I know survivability of embryos can be tough if there are any nutritional deficiencies in the breeders.
I don't want to sound judgmental but have you considered that your incubation and vigor issues could be nutritional? Because I'm not convinced that even organic soybean meal, corn, oats, wheat and barley will provide a high spectrum of minerals and vitamins.

Deficiencies of some nutrients in the breeder flock can cause hatchability problems and chick vigor issues.

Vitamin A - early embryo death
Vitamin E - early embryo death
Late embryo mortality can be from deficiencies in:
Riboflavin, Pantothenic Acid, Biotin, B12, Thiamine, Niacin and Manganese


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/977217

chicks can be very weak with a vitamin D deficiency as are flocks on a corn-soy diet without supplementation.
http://www.merckmanuals.com/vet/pou..._poultry/vitamin_deficiencies_in_poultry.html
Vitamin B12 is also low in a plant based diet.
http://www.thepoultrysite.com/disea...ncy-including-fatty-liver-and-kidney-syndrome

It's just a heads up for those that formulate their own feeds without supplements and want to keep a closed flock.

 

[Organic Acres]

ChickenCanoe;

In comparing artificial incubation to natural (broody hen) incubation, I can say with strong confidence that the vigor problems in artificial incubation are not nutritional. It's because incubators are artificial, even the manufacturer of the incubator says a 60% hatch rate is normal in an artificial incubator.

Comparison:

When I hatch from a broody hen:

Hatch rate: 98% (almost always, every egg hatches)
Chick health and vigor and instincts: Very strong, chicks are strong, loud and healthy and are outside already with mom on the first day
Later mortality rate: On my farm? quite high, but my farm is pretty dangerous, predators and such and I don't supervise my flock.

When I hatch from an incubator (using my own eggs, the same eggs that go under my broody hens, eggs from my own flock):

Hatch rate: 65% at best, even when I follow the instructions for humidity and egg turning and so on perfectly
Chick health and vigor and instincts: markedly different from chicks coming from under my broody hens. They are weak, often can't get out of the shell, and sometimes even when they do get out they promptly die.
Later mortality rate: 100%. In fact, much higher than my chicks from broody hens, but mostly because they don't have a mother to teach them. I have never had an incubated chick actually survive to adulthood on my farm, as being without a mother increases the odds against the chick considerably.

Conclusion:

If the chick vitality and mortality rates were caused by nutritional deficiencies, I would see similar hatch rates and health issues with both the artificially incubated and broody hen incubated eggs, as it's the same eggs from the same flock used in both. The main reasons, then, why incubated chicks on my farm have a lower survival rate is firstly because they have no mother to protect them from the considerable dangers on my farm, and have not had a mother to teach them how to be chickens and how to avoid danger, and secondly because when they incubate in an artificial incubator their development process is not natural and thus they are not as strong. This is confirmed by the fact that 11 out of 12 eggs will consistently hatch under a broody hen, whereas at best 7 our ot 12 eggs will hatch in an incubator.


Note also that my hens are not on a "plant based" diet all year round, they are free range and so they catch a lot of insects and worms and such on the farm for 8 months out of the year, in addition to the feed I give them.

 

[Chris09]

The reason I asked about breeding with those that make their own feed is that I know survivability of embryos can be tough if there are any nutritional deficiencies in the breeders.
I don't want to sound judgmental but have you considered that your incubation and vigor issues could be nutritional? Because I'm not convinced that even organic soybean meal, corn, oats, wheat and barley will provide a high spectrum of minerals and vitamins.

Deficiencies of some nutrients in the breeder flock can cause hatchability problems and chick vigor issues.

Vitamin A - early embryo death
Vitamin E - early embryo death
Late embryo mortality can be from deficiencies in:
Riboflavin, Pantothenic Acid, Biotin, B12, Thiamine, Niacin and Manganese

I agree,
With out supplementing vitamins and minerals I just cant see those grains providing what they need.

@Organic Acres
How are you figuring your proteins?
You posted your grains in parts, you should be pounds.
If you use the numbers you posted weight you only have a 11% protein feed (not near the 25% that you posted), for breeding you should be closer to 20% protein.

 

[Chris09]

ChickenCanoe;

In comparing artificial incubation to natural (broody hen) incubation, I can say with strong confidence that the vigor problems in artificial incubation are not nutritional. It's because incubators are artificial, even the manufacturer of the incubator says a 60% hatch rate is normal in an artificial incubator.

I never had a hatch less than 85% with a incubator unless it was user error or nutritional and all my chicks that I hatch in a incubator are healthy with lots of vigor. Most of the time my incubator hatch is at 90 to 95 percent, my broody hatch runs around 94 to 100 percent depending on breed, American Gamefowl run about 100%, R.I. Reds closer to 95% and my line of Sex-links run from 94 to 97 percent hatch with numbers increasing on the Sex-links.

Are you dropping the temperature of the eggs to about 60 to 70 degrees?