Incomplete lacing

[Petals n Pitchforks Farm]

Hello! This is my first post so I’m not sure if I’m in the right thread or not but I have read so many helpful things on this site for about 2 years and I’m finally diving into my own project line but I am super new to learning about genetics so bare with me.

I have a small flock of Orpingtons and want to start breeding chocolate gold laced. I have a CGL rooster (not the best lacing, not a great body but it’s what I have to work with) and solid chocolate hens (better quality than the rooster) I have had one hatch from them so far and out of that hatch I kept 6 pullets that are all over the place with their patterns and only 1 seems to have true lacing where the others just look muddy or quite solid chocolate. So my question is where do I go from here.. do I breed all of them back to the CGL rooster or do I do away with some of them? I’m really confused and feel like I don’t know enough about the laced pattern gene itself but am struggling to find information that’s at my level for learning.

 

[Egg Snatcher]

Welcome to BYC

@NatJ may know

 

[Petals n Pitchforks Farm]

Welcome to BYC

@NatJ may know

Thank you!!

 

[NatJ]

my question is where do I go from here.. do I breed all of them back to the CGL rooster or do I do away with some of them? I’m really confused and feel like I don’t know enough about the laced pattern gene itself but am struggling to find information that’s at my level for learning.

If you are trying to get the color right:

Can you get any other variety of laced Orpington? Breeding your current rooster to a black laced gold or a black laced silver would give daughters that have chocolate lacing on gold, which is what you want.

If you want to keep working with just your current birds, I would breed some or all of them back to the laced rooster. Probably half the chicks will be solid chocolate, and the other half will have a variety of patterns in their feathers. Choose the best-patterned ones for the next generation.

Genetics involved:

--e locus
There is a particular spot in a chicken's genes called the "e-locus," and there are at least 5 different possible genes there. Each of them changes how black & gold are distributed on the chicken. Solid black or solid chocolate chickens have a gene called Extended Black on the e-locus, and cannot show lacing or any other pattern. A laced chicken has some other gene there (at least 3 different ones are possible for a chicken that shows lacing.)

So the first gene you need to get right is the e-locus gene: whatever is present in the laced rooster should work fine. It sounds like the pullets are mostly showing Extended Black (inherited from the solid chocolate hens), but those pullets must be carrying whatever e-locus gene their father had. Breeding back to the father will give some chicks that inherit the not-Extended-Black gene from the pullet and from her father.

--Pattern gene
A chicken needs this gene to have lacing, or spangling, or penciling, or certain other patterns. All the pullets should have this gene (inherited from their father), but you cannot see the effect on a chicken that has Extended Black.

--Melanotic
This gene works with the pattern gene to make lacing. You probably don't need to think much about it, because it is linked to the pattern gene (sits near it on the same chromsome.) So they usually get inherited together.

--Columbian gene
This also works with the pattern gene to make lacing. If you don't have this gene, you might get double-laced or spangled or some other pattern instead of single lacing.

Breeding back to the father, and keeping chicks that show some amount of patterning instead of solid chocolate, is the first step. (Gets the right e-locus gene) Then you select among those chicks for the best lacing, and breed pullets to their father or their brothers.

I have a small flock of Orpingtons and want to start breeding chocolate gold laced. I have a CGL rooster (not the best lacing, not a great body but it’s what I have to work with) and solid chocolate hens (better quality than the rooster)

If you just focus on the coloring, you may end up with poor body type, especially if your original rooster is not especially good there.

So you should pay some attention to picking the best body types of the chicks that have the color/pattern you want.

And when you get a male with nice color & pattern, you should probably breed him to the good chocolate hens, keep the daughters with the best body type, and breed them back to him. As regards color this is basically the same as what you are doing now, but hopefully with a better-quality male than your current one. Regular crosses to the hens with good body type can help get better type in the laced line you are trying to create.

I kept 6 pullets that are all over the place with their patterns and only 1 seems to have true lacing where the others just look muddy or quite solid chocolate.

It is interesting that one pullet has actual lacing. One of your "solid chocolate" hens might not be pure for Extended Black. If you can figure out which one she is, and hatch a bunch of her eggs, you might get more laced ones. That could let you make much faster progress, to already have a hen with good body type and the right genes to produce some laced chicks.

I’m really confused and feel like I don’t know enough about the laced pattern gene itself but am struggling to find information that’s at my level for learning.

It definitely is confusing!

Have you tried playing with the genetics calculator?
http://kippenjungle.nl/breeds/crossbreeds.html

It has a lot of features and options, and but can be helpful for modeling things. You can change the genes in the dropdown boxes and watch the chicken pictures change.

In this case, if you start with the e-locus gene (top one in the long column of gene boxes), you can change it to anything else and see how the black & gold on the chicken get re-arranged a bit. Some of the rooster options look alike, but the hen ones show more differences. E/E is a chicken pure for Extended Black. E/ [anything else] is a chicken that has Extended Black and one other gene. You can see that all of those options produce black chickens. That is what happened with many of your current pullets. (Black chickens can show a bit of leakage of other colors, but the calculator does not model that very well.)

After you have a chicken that is not solid black (e^b or E^R are common in laced chickens), then you can mess with the other genes. Adding Pg, Ml, and Co will typically give a laced chicken. Sometimes they need Db as well. Different combinations of those genes will make different patterns (laced, spangled, double laced, penciled).

As regards the other genes listed in the calculator, you want s+ (gold, not S Silver), and you want choc (chocolate) not Choc+ (the non-chocolate form that lets the chicken show black.) I don't think any other color genes will matter for your project.

 

[Petals n Pitchforks Farm]

W

If you are trying to get the color right:

Can you get any other variety of laced Orpington? Breeding your current rooster to a black laced gold or a black laced silver would give daughters that have chocolate lacing on gold, which is what you want.

If you want to keep working with just your current birds, I would breed some or all of them back to the laced rooster. Probably half the chicks will be solid chocolate, and the other half will have a variety of patterns in their feathers. Choose the best-patterned ones for the next generation.

Genetics involved:

--e locus
There is a particular spot in a chicken's genes called the "e-locus," and there are at least 5 different possible genes there. Each of them changes how black & gold are distributed on the chicken. Solid black or solid chocolate chickens have a gene called Extended Black on the e-locus, and cannot show lacing or any other pattern. A laced chicken has some other gene there (at least 3 different ones are possible for a chicken that shows lacing.)

So the first gene you need to get right is the e-locus gene: whatever is present in the laced rooster should work fine. It sounds like the pullets are mostly showing Extended Black (inherited from the solid chocolate hens), but those pullets must be carrying whatever e-locus gene their father had. Breeding back to the father will give some chicks that inherit the not-Extended-Black gene from the pullet and from her father.

--Pattern gene
A chicken needs this gene to have lacing, or spangling, or penciling, or certain other patterns. All the pullets should have this gene (inherited from their father), but you cannot see the effect on a chicken that has Extended Black.

--Melanotic
This gene works with the pattern gene to make lacing. You probably don't need to think much about it, because it is linked to the pattern gene (sits near it on the same chromsome.) So they usually get inherited together.

--Columbian gene
This also works with the pattern gene to make lacing. If you don't have this gene, you might get double-laced or spangled or some other pattern instead of single lacing.

Breeding back to the father, and keeping chicks that show some amount of patterning instead of solid chocolate, is the first step. (Gets the right e-locus gene) Then you select among those chicks for the best lacing, and breed pullets to their father or their brothers.


If you just focus on the coloring, you may end up with poor body type, especially if your original rooster is not especially good there.

So you should pay some attention to picking the best body types of the chicks that have the color/pattern you want.

And when you get a male with nice color & pattern, you should probably breed him to the good chocolate hens, keep the daughters with the best body type, and breed them back to him. As regards color this is basically the same as what you are doing now, but hopefully with a better-quality male than your current one. Regular crosses to the hens with good body type can help get better type in the laced line you are trying to create.


It is interesting that one pullet has actual lacing. One of your "solid chocolate" hens might not be pure for Extended Black. If you can figure out which one she is, and hatch a bunch of her eggs, you might get more laced ones. That could let you make much faster progress, to already have a hen with good body type and the right genes to produce some laced chicks.


It definitely is confusing!

Have you tried playing with the genetics calculator?
http://kippenjungle.nl/breeds/crossbreeds.html

It has a lot of features and options, and but can be helpful for modeling things. You can change the genes in the dropdown boxes and watch the chicken pictures change.

In this case, if you start with the e-locus gene (top one in the long column of gene boxes), you can change it to anything else and see how the black & gold on the chicken get re-arranged a bit. Some of the rooster options look alike, but the hen ones show more differences. E/E is a chicken pure for Extended Black. E/ [anything else] is a chicken that has Extended Black and one other gene. You can see that all of those options produce black chickens. That is what happened with many of your current pullets. (Black chickens can show a bit of leakage of other colors, but the calculator does not model that very well.)

After you have a chicken that is not solid black (e^b or E^R are common in laced chickens), then you can mess with the other genes. Adding Pg, Ml, and Co will typically give a laced chicken. Sometimes they need Db as well. Different combinations of those genes will make different patterns (laced, spangled, double laced, penciled).

As regards the other genes listed in the calculator, you want s+ (gold, not S Silver), and you want choc (chocolate) not Choc+ (the non-chocolate form that lets the chicken show black.) I don't think any other color genes will matter for your project.

Wow!! Thank you SO much for this detailed response. I’ve been on Facebook groups for months trying to get info and no one has ever broken it down this way for me so this is incredibly appreciated. I will definitely be back with more questions once I digest all of that info

 

[NatJ]

W

Wow!! Thank you SO much for this detailed response. I’ve been on Facebook groups for months trying to get info and no one has ever broken it down this way for me so this is incredibly appreciated. I will definitely be back with more questions once I digest all of that info

Here is a source I have found helpful:
http://www.sellers.kippenjungle.nl/page0.html
That page has links to three other pages: one with basics about how genetics works, one that talks about some chicken genes, and one with a table of chicken genes and a few notes about each one.

I do not know if it is the right level for you or not, but if it does happen to be the right level it might be helpful.