Informed that I was in violation of our covenants???

[chickenzoo]

Their wording is a little loose and confusing. Like what is the difference in an Emu and a domestic ratite... an emu is a ratite...... so is an ostrich...... For poultry it should state how many per acre etc... they are allowing.
I would talk again to the HOA and ask them to show you exactly where it states how many birds you can have..... if they can't, their loss.
I just moved to a bigger farm. We lived in our last place 15 years. It was sold to us as AR, meaning agiculture and no limit to what you could have with over an acre, even stated AR on my paperwork. 15 years later nasty crazy city person rented a house behind us., complained about the roosters and our GP dogs barking. Come to find out our house was zoned AR-1... they forgot to tell us the one..... it ment their was a limit. We ended up moving to a bigger farm which worked out well for us(except for still trying to sell the old house). I made sure to call our countys zoning office and find out the true zoning of any property I was looking at, as I'm not moving again......

 

[jessicayarno]

I agree, it should be listed, and they just assume that poultry is under "small animals" but it isn't listed under small animals in fact it goes on to say that one can have "poultry", but doesn't say how many. Like I said I am willing to compromise, but I will have more than 6 birds. I am willing to just raise enough birds to feed my family meat and eggs, but I don't feel they have the right to tell me how many it is that my family needs for meat and eggs. I do hope that this can be resolved, and really wish people could grow a pair and address situations, rather than running to someone else to have them deal with problems for them. I appreciate all of the advice I have received. I do take it to heart and will do my part to be a friendly neighbor.

 

[Sonoran Silkies]

It is my understanding that courts abide by the rule that an ambiguous contract is interpreted against the party who drafted it. In other words, the party who did not draft the contract will be given the benefit of the doubt.

not necessarily.

 

[Sonoran Silkies]

We are in a non-formal HOA, and our home is zoned agricultural and yes there are restrictions on how many livestock we can raise, but there aren't any restrictions listed in the covenants, on how many poultry we can have, just that we have to take care of them and keep them contained. The neighbors that lived there before never complained. I personally think that these people have nothing better to do, and in my opinion if you don't want to smell animal manure you shouldn't move into a home that is situated directly behind a pasture. The crazy thing is, is that one of the others in the HOA has chickens, but mine are the ones that are a problem, oh and there coop is situated where winds will blow the smell directly to their home also. I was so upset about this, because I am a stay at home mom with 5 children and this is how I earn extra money, by selling extra meat birds and eggs. We planned on living in the house for the rest of our lives, the whole reason we paid in full for the home. I know that no matter what I am going to run into people that have nothing better to do than gripe and complain, but I really don't want to be enemies with my neighbors. I do wish that they would have just come to me and talked to me about it. I guess my next question is. Should I just hire an attorney??

It is either an HOA (or similar) that has power or it is not. Exactly how your covenants are stated will factor into determining what you are allowed. For example, is there anywhere that states that there is a total number of animals allowed? Are poultry listed in the same section or paragraph as small animals, even if a different sentence, while large animals are in a separate section or paragraph? or are there three sections/paragraphs, or only one? Is there a definitions section, and does it define livestock or small animals (separate from the paragraph that says what is and is not allowed)?

Are there any limitations on businesses or commercial enterprises you can operate from your property? That could limit you ability to sell eggs or meat birds.

Compost should not smell if it is done properly. Likewise, coops and runs (even for meat birds) should not smell if kept properly. Yes, some people have more sensitive noses than others, but the question to ask yourself is whether an average person plucked from just about anywhere would find the amount of odor noticeable or objectionable?

Yes, it is worthwhile to consult an attorney to look over your document and give you an opinion on whether there is a valid legal complaint on the part of your neighbors or the president, or whether the document gives you the right to your birds. Hiring an attorney does not mean that you are necessarily going to fight the case in court--right now you are gathering information on legalities, and however much feedback you get here, it is worth squat in a court of law. Someone who has actually looked over your document, knows your state statutes and is familiar with land use and HOA cases can give you informed advice that IS worth something in a court of law should you end up there.


edited to add: If there is a rule against chickens, it must be enforced against all who are in violation of that rule; not just some. Now if they have a handful of chickens and you have many, many more, then the cases are not the same. But if they have a similar number as you, or more than the six you were told you are allowed, then the cases are the same.

 

[Sonoran Silkies]

@ Selfsufficient I actually suggested that last night. I came up with a ton of suggestions, but the president acted like it didn't matter what suggestions I had, that I simply could only raise enough birds to feed my family. Okay great that he is willing to compromise, but are the neighbors that complained willing to compromise? Oh and who dictates how many chickens is enough to feed my large family? Do I tell my teenage boys that they are only allowed to eat one egg because our neighbors said that we can only have one chicken per family member? I am not willing to just stop raising birds because they have a problem with the smell of chicken poop. I will however do what i can do within reason to make them happy. I am not out to start a war, but I am doing my part to feed my family healthy homegrown food and I feel that is my God-given right and nobody is going to take that away from me. I moved to the country out of a subdivision so that I could have chickens. I personally don't think that 50 chickens smell any worse than 2 cows or 2 horses. Maybe I am just immune to the smell because I was raised in the country and we had chickens and our neighbors had cattle.

Either the documents state how many poultry you can have or they do not. When you chose to live in an HOA, you chose to subjugate some of your rights to live in that community. Fifty chickens in how much space?

 

[Sonoran Silkies]

No, no. Take a deep breath. Don't hire an atty just yet - it will send the message that you are looking for a fight, instead of a resolution. The atty will be there if you need him/her in the future.

Just as you would have liked the neighbor to come to you - - YOU go to the neighbor. Think of a few things you can do to help the situation - show your neighbor that you will make a good faith effort - LISTEN to what their concerns are.


Devil's Advocate:
You write,"Our covenant states that we are allowed two large animals meaning horse, cow, llama, or emu.OR 4 small animals meaning calves, sheep, goats. Then the covenant goes on to say "Poultry, domestic ratite, and small animals will also be allowed, but in all cases must be adequately cared for and must be confined in a satisfactory manner to the owner's property."

The words, "adequately cared for" and "satisfactory manner" may be what comes back to bite you. If you get an atty - HOA gets an atty - and they come to your neighbor's house on a balmy day to wiff the wind... Will they smell your coop? Will a city girl atty think your chickens are being cared for "adequately"? Their argument will be that you signed the covenant when you moved there - - 2 horses OR 4 goats... would that lead a judge to believe 50 chickens would be acceptable? You will be leaving it up to others to decide "satisfactory manner" if you get litigators involved. Also, "... I earn extra money, by selling extra meat birds and eggs." You can't do that unless you have a business license and your property is zoned properly. So, you must compromise with your HOA or possibly lose your flock and your extra income.

You have a lot to lose - - tread lightly - - smile sweetly -- talk to your neighbors and resolve this independant of the law.
How far into the "country" did you move that you have a HOA that says you can only have 4 goats? Is it possible that you had false expectations?

Hiring an attorney does not mean filing a lawsuit. Doesn't mean anyone except the OP knows that they have legal advice.

 

[yakibert]

I agree, hire a lawyer. He should be able to sit down with you, look at your CCRs, look at your local/city/county laws and tell you specifically that you don't need to worry or that you need to do something. It gives you peace of mind and a solid direction.

 

[jessicayarno]

Okay it DOES NOT state how many birds i am allowed to have. I put in my first post "exactly" what the covenants state. I have spoken again to the president and told him that I am willing to compromise, but in no way am i only going to raise 6 birds when another person in our HOA has more than 6 birds. Fair is fair..... I will however not compost the manure, and reduce the amount of birds that i am raising to make them happy. I will no longer raise enough to sell, but just enough for my family. The rules in this covenant are not followed at all, and they can't all of a sudden decide that "oh wait we are gonna try to enforce this rule" that really isn't even a rule, dumb move cuz i would have a huge list of complaints about others that are breaking covenant rules... I am not the type of person to complain, but oh believe me, when push comes to shove if there can't be a compromise then I will be raising a stink.

 

[Sonoran Silkies]

Okay it DOES NOT state how many birds i am allowed to have. I put in my first post "exactly" what the covenants state. I have spoken again to the president and told him that I am willing to compromise, but in no way am i only going to raise 6 birds when another person in our HOA has more than 6 birds. Fair is fair..... I will however not compost the manure, and reduce the amount of birds that i am raising to make them happy. I will no longer raise enough to sell, but just enough for my family. The rules in this covenant are not followed at all, and they can't all of a sudden decide that "oh wait we are gonna try to enforce this rule" that really isn't even a rule, dumb move cuz i would have a huge list of complaints about others that are breaking covenant rules... I am not the type of person to complain, but oh believe me, when push comes to shove if there can't be a compromise then I will be raising a stink.

Quoted excerpts are not quite the same as quoted in entirety. Making a deal with the HOA president is not really the way to go. You need to know whether the covenants are enforceable, and exactly what the restrictions are and are not. Making a deal hurts both you and the HOA. Either you are "legal" or you are not. From the standpoint of the HOA, making a deal and allowing restricted activities to exist makes the likelihood of future lawsuit from someone who want the covenants correctly enforced much higher, and that will cost ALL homeowners. From the standpoint of individual members such as yourself, accepting restrictions that do not exist to be enforced restricts ALL members, and also increases the likelihood of future legal action. Lawsuits hurt ALL members as each of you will ultimately pay the bill, regardless of who wins. You ALL need to figure out exactly what the restrictions are and are not, and operate within those parameters.

Raising birds for sale may or may not be a violation; a couple of us realized that it MIGHT be, but you need to read your covenants and zoning code to see if it is or is not. In some cases an agricultural district allows raising agricultural products for sale, and in other cases it does not. And if the covenants address businesses or commercial enterprises, that is another issue.

Composting manure is not, or at least should not be an issue if it is properly composted. I have a couple of hundred chickens, and do some composting. There is minimal odor during extended wet weather conditions and none at other times.

 

[Presidential]

I understand hiring an atty does not = lawsuit. However, if there is legwork this OP can do herself (such as reading her County restrictions), it will save her a pocket full of change - and sound more friendly to her neighbor while she is talking to him face to face. "My atty says" is more threatening than "the zoning official says".

Also, this OP needs to decide if she wants to do a ton of work to change the HOA deed restrictions - or - just come to an agreement with her neighbor, to get the HOA off her back. The approach to this situaion will be much different, depending on her goals.

Maybe the things she is compromising away are not the things upsetting the neighbor.