Introducing chicks to a broody hen with scent.

[3feathers]

I've notice that when an egg hatches or even a partially developed egg is broken there is a very strong scent. It also seems to affect the chickens. I've had eggs pecked and broken with partial development. When I took it out and was washing it off the other chickens took note of it and hung around the area. The broody hen who happened to be out looked around as if looking for a chick.
Has anyone tried using a partially developed egg to sent other chicks in order to get them accepted by a brooding hen?

 

[Angiebubs]

No but I am very interested in hearing what people have to say on this subject!

 

[chooks4life]

I've notice that when an egg hatches or even a partially developed egg is broken there is a very strong scent. It also seems to affect the chickens. I've had eggs pecked and broken with partial development. When I took it out and was washing it off the other chickens took note of it and hung around the area. The broody hen who happened to be out looked around as if looking for a chick.
Has anyone tried using a partially developed egg to sent other chicks in order to get them accepted by a brooding hen?

I've never smelt this very strong scent but then again my sense of smell is better attuned to bacteria than normal smells, lol! No, I haven't tried it, but I've done a lot of adopting-out.

Scent doesn't matter in my experience with chicks. I've had to adopt out many clutches over the years, as I find out which hens are able to mother and which aren't, the hard way. The chicks' body language and tone of voice is what really matters.

Unless you've got a 'racist' hen, that is, i.e. one of those who won't tolerate chicks of a certain appearance. Strangely enough it's often black hens not tolerating black chicks, but preferring white ones, or white hens not tolerating white chicks, but preferring black ones... Or hens of any color rejecting partridge-pattern chicks...

Anyway... Back on topic... If you don't have the above issue, then your ability to adopt out chicks mainly depends on a few things:

The hen: she needs to not see the chicks go under her, and preferably not have heard them nearby either. If she knows they belong to another hen you're not likely to succeed. Otherwise, chicks of up to a week old should be easy to adopt out, and ones even older have successfully adopted themselves out before too.

The chicks: this is the most important factor. Some chicks appear to have 'cuckoo' instincts. If they find themselves needing a new mother, they will try to adopt her at night-time preferably. Once under her, they will stay out of her sight for at least 6 hours on average, and stay silent; after a few hours, they will make noise again, but they've changed their tone and their behavior.

You will notice a hatching chick makes a certain kind of peeping, whereas a hatched and dry chick sounds different. Smart chicks will stay silent for a good few hours, and almost motionless, hiding under the hen, then begin to make 'hatching peeps' instead of 'normal peeps'. Once the hen starts responding, they will gradually make their way to the front of her body, and sit there like exhausted just-hatched babies, testing whether she's truly accepted them or still likely to attack. They will revert to that crouching, wobbly behavior of a just-hatched chick, even if they were already at the stage of zooming around and leaping from heights with their previous mother.

They will stop eating and drinking even if they were already a week old until they've achieved this re-enactment of hatching behavior resulting in acceptance from the hen. Some will not stay silent, but will almost immediately imitate freshly-hatched peeping and snuggling behaviors even if they were already at the stage of free ranging with their previous mother. It's amazing to watch. They change their voices completely.

Some chicks can't do this and won't get adopted. They're more likely to be killed. Some chicks are also lacking in filial instinct and can't 'use' a mother, they have no instinctive reaction to them due to thousands of generations of domestic arrangements that separate mothers from chicks. Just as we bred paternal and maternal instinct out of many males and females, we've bred out filial instinct from many babies. Taking fertile eggs from a hatchery and letting a broody hatch them can fail to make a family for that reason as the chicks may just abandon the mother.

But most chicks are amazingly spot-on with the 'I've just hatched' trick. It's definitely a survival instinct. I've also noted 'cuckoo' behavior in adult hens who go to all manner of sneaky lengths to deposit eggs into the nests of hens that are proven successful mothers. They only do this with known-capable hens, they don't respond to broodies who aren't proven mothers. I suspect it may date back to the normal Jungle Fowl family, where an average of one rooster and one or two hens live together, and perhaps the subordinate second hen may be prevented from breeding by the alpha hen unless she resorts to such sneaky techniques... Just a theory, after all, the behavior had to come from somewhere. It might have only originated in domesticity, not the wild.

Best wishes.

 

[Angiebubs]

Wow what fantastic information and obviously loads of experience behind it! With that said-quick question for you:

I've never smelt this very strong scent but then again my sense of smell is better attuned to bacteria than normal smells, lol! No, I haven't tried it, but I've done a lot of adopting-out.

Scent doesn't matter in my experience with chicks. I've had to adopt out many clutches over the years, as I find out which hens are able to mother and which aren't, the hard way. The chicks' body language and tone of voice is what really matters.

Unless you've got a 'racist' hen, that is, i.e. one of those who won't tolerate chicks of a certain appearance. Strangely enough it's often black hens not tolerating black chicks, but preferring white ones, or white hens not tolerating white chicks, but preferring black ones... Or hens of any color rejecting partridge-pattern chicks...

Anyway... Back on topic... If you don't have the above issue, then your ability to adopt out chicks mainly depends on a few things:

The hen: she needs to not see the chicks go under her, and preferably not have heard them nearby either. If she knows they belong to another hen you're not likely to succeed. Otherwise, chicks of up to a week old should be easy to adopt out, and ones even older have successfully adopted themselves out before too.

The chicks: this is the most important factor. Some chicks appear to have 'cuckoo' instincts. If they find themselves needing a new mother, they will try to adopt her at night-time preferably. Once under her, they will stay out of her sight for at least 6 hours on average, and stay silent; after a few hours, they will make noise again, but they've changed their tone and their behavior.

You will notice a hatching chick makes a certain kind of peeping, whereas a hatched and dry chick sounds different. Smart chicks will stay silent for a good few hours, and almost motionless, hiding under the hen, then begin to make 'hatching peeps' instead of 'normal peeps'. Once the hen starts responding, they will gradually make their way to the front of her body, and sit there like exhausted just-hatched babies, testing whether she's truly accepted them or still likely to attack. They will revert to that crouching, wobbly behavior of a just-hatched chick, even if they were already at the stage of zooming around and leaping from heights with their previous mother.

They will stop eating and drinking even if they were already a week old until they've achieved this re-enactment of hatching behavior resulting in acceptance from the hen. Some will not stay silent, but will almost immediately imitate freshly-hatched peeping and snuggling behaviors even if they were already at the stage of free ranging with their previous mother. It's amazing to watch. They change their voices completely.

Some chicks can't do this and won't get adopted. They're more likely to be killed. Some chicks are also lacking in filial instinct and can't 'use' a mother, they have no instinctive reaction to them due to thousands of generations of domestic arrangements that separate mothers from chicks. Just as we bred paternal and maternal instinct out of many males and females, we've bred out filial instinct from many babies. Taking fertile eggs from a hatchery and letting a broody hatch them can fail to make a family for that reason as the chicks may just abandon the mother.

But most chicks are amazingly spot-on with the 'I've just hatched' trick. It's definitely a survival instinct. I've also noted 'cuckoo' behavior in adult hens who go to all manner of sneaky lengths to deposit eggs into the nests of hens that are proven successful mothers. They only do this with known-capable hens, they don't respond to broodies who aren't proven mothers. I suspect it may date back to the normal Jungle Fowl family, where an average of one rooster and one or two hens live together, and perhaps the subordinate second hen may be prevented from breeding by the alpha hen unless she resorts to such sneaky techniques... Just a theory, after all, the behavior had to come from somewhere. It might have only originated in domesticity, not the wild.

Best wishes.

Wow what fantastic information and obviously loads of experience behind it! With that said-quick question for you:
I have shipped eggs coming soon. Out of my 23 hens-7 are currently broody. I have 2 proven good momma hens. However, one of these has been broody for a few weeks already-is it a risk to try and use her this late in the game?

Also, any suggestions on new broody hens and what to look for in trying to use them for raising chicks prior to giving them eggs?

In the past, I had a brooder area that I separated the moms/eggs/chicks into. This time, I am concerned as there seems to be a dampness I cant get rid of in that corner due to cement walls and the amount of rain we have received. After battling Cocci in the past, I hate to risk putting them back there. Any suggestions if I try and keep them in with the flock to keep the hens from dog piling into a particular nestbox?

 

[chooks4life]

Wow what fantastic information and obviously loads of experience behind it! With that said-quick question for you:
I have shipped eggs coming soon. Out of my 23 hens-7 are currently broody. I have 2 proven good momma hens. However, one of these has been broody for a few weeks already-is it a risk to try and use her this late in the game?

Depends on what you mean exactly by 'a few weeks' --- some hens can safely go for a month, but you need to monitor them and make sure they are a good weight, leaving the nest often enough, etc. I'd feel their breast muscles and general weight and make sure they were taking a cropful of food every day, even if I had to take them off the nest to make them eat. If they look like they're 'over-brooded' already then better to stop them than to use them as they are in poor condition and will likely abandon the chicks young to recover their health.

Also, any suggestions on new broody hens and what to look for in trying to use them for raising chicks prior to giving them eggs?

No violence towards chicks, or singling-out of hens with chicks to attack them, are some good signs. Asides from that, nothing much, I've had hens who I thought were surefire duds raise babies well, and hens I thought were surefire 'goers' utterly fail.

I've had hens from nonbroody breeds suddenly decide to mother at advanced ages, despite never having gone broody before, and do a great job, and I've also had hens from proven maternal lines, from superior broody breeds, fail. The only real proof is in how she does with her chicks, which is why I've had to adopt out quite a few clutches, as all her previous behavior doesn't really mean a thing, short of actually mothering competently.

In the past, I had a brooder area that I separated the moms/eggs/chicks into. This time, I am concerned as there seems to be a dampness I cant get rid of in that corner due to cement walls and the amount of rain we have received. After battling Cocci in the past, I hate to risk putting them back there. Any suggestions if I try and keep them in with the flock to keep the hens from dog piling into a particular nestbox?

The dampness sure is an issue especially because it's on concrete. I'd use hydrated agricultural lime on the ground there to keep it sweet and keep the pathogen and parasite burden down. Better to make or get several small easily-moved cages to keep them in, on the ground not on concrete. These are also very helpful in dealing with broodies or new mothers or ill or injured birds, or just newcomers needing time to bond to the location and observe the resident flock.

About the cocci, I've always used fresh raw garlic in their food from hatching onwards and never had a single case of clinical cocci, no deaths to it. Raising them under their mothers, and in the dirt, from hatching onwards also helps prevent it. I don't use medicated feed or anything like that, not counting garlic and other natural medications, lol.

Regarding keeping them dogpiling into a single nestbox, it helps to have fake eggs, plaster of paris coated in acrylic for example, in various nests, which can incite them to lay there, as completely raiding the nests of all eggs can result in them abandoning those nests and seeking ones that regularly have eggs.

I'd make nests in different places and found most hens wanted to lay off the ground, as high as possible, and the dominant ones always got the highest nests. Some hens like to nest alone, some just like to communally nest, though, you won't find it too easy to dissuade them from that.

I used lucerne/alfalfa hay for them to nest in, as they like fresh nests. It's a few dollars more expensive, but where I lived at the time it was extremely high humidity and the other hays would go moldy immediately, in fact they were moldy before I could even buy them, whereas lucerne would keep for weeks.

Lucerne makes good deep litter compost when you refresh the nests, too. Getting deep litter composting working is also great for their health but many people don't seem to be able to make it work, for whatever reason. Sure worked wonders for me and my flock, though.

Best wishes.

 

[Angiebubs]

Again wonderful information!!!

I take fermented feed to my broody hens in the box-yes I sit and hold it for them LOL And I watch to make sure they get off to go eat. Although its proving a little more challenging with 7 of them broody at the same time right now!

I am nervous trying to use the new broody hens this time as these shipped eggs are costing a fair amount (especially knowing the % hatch rate of shipped eggs)

Regarding the Cocci: I have been very careful and had an excellent healthy flock until I made the mistake of bringing in 2 young pullets last summer. Even though keeping them separated, changing clothes, shoes etc...it somehow made its way into the main flock (lost 5 from this-confirmed by autopsy)

My coop is aprox 10 ft by 20 ft....with mostly cement walls and floor. I have been using pine shavings in both the nestboxes and floor. However I have kept the brooder/damp area closed off from them -I will definitely check into getting some sweet lime to put down. (I also purchased Oxine to spray this area as well)

When you mentioned using cages for the broodys on eggs...do you actually close them up in the cage? Do they get stressed from doing that? Or leave it open for them to come and go as needed? and hope the other hens dont all jsut change the dogpile location?

Thanks again for the valuable insights!

 

[chooks4life]

Again wonderful information!!!

I take fermented feed to my broody hens in the box-yes I sit and hold it for them LOL And I watch to make sure they get off to go eat. Although its proving a little more challenging with 7 of them broody at the same time right now!

Good to hear, I'd bet you've got a handle on it then. Soaked or fermented feeds are great stuff for health.

I am nervous trying to use the new broody hens this time as these shipped eggs are costing a fair amount (especially knowing the % hatch rate of shipped eggs)

Regarding the Cocci: I have been very careful and had an excellent healthy flock until I made the mistake of bringing in 2 young pullets last summer. Even though keeping them separated, changing clothes, shoes etc...it somehow made its way into the main flock (lost 5 from this-confirmed by autopsy)

Sorry to hear that. I'm not a big believer in the very careful approach myself, my approach was to expose them to everything possible as often as possible, bringing in birds from everywhere whether sick or healthy, and just continually feeding immune system boosting foods, raw garlic being one of them.

I figured since disease was basically unavoidable it was in the best interests to build as strong a flock as possible. It seems to have worked. I've never had any major illness sweep through the flock, the losses to disease have been very minor, mostly genetic disease has been the killer, which I got from purebred breeders, not mongrel breeders. I'm a big fan of mongrels. I like some purebreds just fine but nothing beats a good mongrel in my experience.

There are scientific studies proving that disinfecting their environment regularly is one guaranteed way to foster weak immune systems and strong pathogens. It's a bit like recreating the 'hospital' environment, where only the strongest 'superbugs' can survive the disinfection regimen. I began the deep litter composting method because I found that the more often I cleaned the coops the more often they got sick and the quicker the stink came back. As soon as I stopped cleaning them out and started establishing deep litter composting, they stopped getting sick, and the coops stopped stinking, and that was the last time I ever saw the whole flock look 'off' or had the coops stink, and it's been years.

The separation and careful hygiene and disinfecting using artificial chemicals is what contributes to their weak immune systems, unfortunately, and causes the massive flock die-offs any time a serious disease does the rounds. It's inevitable that they get exposed to it, no matter how careful you are, for example the wild birds bring it in, and the wind can carry dander over 50 miles. You're better off building their immunity aggressively. This doesn't even necessarily mean you will lose the weakest in droves... I never had any such die-off, even though I was expecting it.

My coop is aprox 10 ft by 20 ft....with mostly cement walls and floor. I have been using pine shavings in both the nestboxes and floor. However I have kept the brooder/damp area closed off from them -I will definitely check into getting some sweet lime to put down. (I also purchased Oxine to spray this area as well)

I don't know what Oxine is but I'd recommend not using anything artificial or overprocessed as it also kills the good bacteria, fungi and microorganisms. These are what actually keeps the harmful ones in check, and they tend to repopulate/colonize slower than the harmful ones, or not at all. It can start a vicious cycle of disease you can't stop without digging out the sickened soil and burning the area. If the soil is healthy so will be everything above it, and if not, there's nothing you can do to make the animals/plants kept in/on unhealthy soil be healthy... except to treat the soil to make it healthy.

If you can, I would recommend you get some mulch from a forest floor and put it down in that pen to inoculate it with beneficial microorganisms etc which will, with a little help i.e. from agricultural lime, control the bad ones indefinitely.

When you mentioned using cages for the broodys on eggs...do you actually close them up in the cage? Do they get stressed from doing that? Or leave it open for them to come and go as needed? and hope the other hens dont all jsut change the dogpile location?

I avoid stressing them out since generally they will then abandon the clutch. It takes some time, repetition, and some smart hens, but my proven mothers know from experience that when they're broody, I will move them from the main cage into a small broody pen, and they now know to stay there as it's their own little mothering pen. I lock them in at night time, but let them out during the day. The chances of the other hens relocating to that cage are very slim, none of mine have ever done it. The mothers get very possessive about their little pens even when they're not using them, lol.

It takes a few nights to 'set'/bond them to the location but with the smarter hens I only have to put them in once, now. Otherwise, when first training them to this idea, I let them shift back to the main cages daily and just keep replacing them at night until they bond to the new area, if it's early on in the brood. Takes up to a week but usually only a few days.Shifting them at night is best as they stay put for longer which allows time for them to bond to that location.

But if it's really late in the development stage, I let them start hatching in the main cage, put a small bird cage over the top of them (minus the bottom of the cage) so they can hatch the babies in peace without being jostled by other hens, and once they're bonded to a chick or two I shift them to the little mothering cage and lock them in for the first 2 days of the chicks' lives while the rest of the clutch hatches.

With the best mothers I let them free range from the first day onwards, though, and with less able ones I keep them in for a week. Sometimes I keep them in longer if there's an injured or very late chick among the clutch. Most of them are smart enough to keep coming back to the remains of the clutch, the unhatched eggs, and incubate it regularly for up to two weeks in case more hatch.

Some hens now automatically go to their mothering cage when they want to brood, they'll lay their unwanted eggs in the main cages, then build a clutch to brood in their mothering cage. I also use the pens for breaking unwanted broodies out of it, locking them in for 24 to 48 hours.

Thanks again for the valuable insights!

You're very welcome, hope it helps. Feel free to PM me for more information on anything. Your mileage may vary, of course, these are just my experiences.

Best wishes.

 

[Angiebubs]

From your experience, how would you divide up the 14 fertile shipped eggs I have coming?
I have 2 proven moms (a Dorking/Iowa blue cross, and a blk Orp) then the following "new to being broody 1 yr old hens: 3 banty cochins, a BLR Wyandotte, and a Blue LF cochin?

Just divide between the two proven hens? Or give each of them 2?