Iowa Blues - Breed thread and discussion

[IowaBlueCurt]

Great topic Kari. Thanks for posting it. In my own thoughts as I look through my flock, the tails are probably the thing that causes me the most questions. Our historical pictures really don't give us a clear indication of what the tails looked like. Likewise, all the interviews I conducted with individuals who were aquainted with the breed in the past, very few were able to give us any indications of what the tail looked like. What they did give was very vauge........ 1) inbetween a rock and a leghorn, 2) not very good looking, 3) medium sized, generally rough looking. Well, #2 and #3 don't sounds very good and if they were like that, we'd need to correct that. Now, concerning #1, where between a rock and a leghorn did their tails typically set???? That's unknown.

Add to this limited knowledge of tail set, we've got the introduction of Rock, Campine, and Fayoumi from Sandhill, and Leghorn from Ideal. All but the Rock give us some very "country fowl" tails. Meaning, jaunty, pointed, and in the case of the Leghorn, well spread and full tails. So, were do we set on this? I think so some degree we've got some wiggle room to decide what we think best presents the breed.

When I look to my flock and the characteristics I envision, this is what I see. (Remember, this is my opinion and taste, and does not represent the thoughts and opinions of other breeders). I personally like to see a back that is level to very slightly sloping that blends smoothly into the tail. What I mean by smoothly, is that the feathers do not part at the base of the tail like a Hamburg or Redcap, but makes a smooth transition similar way the transition you often times see on a production red for instance. The tail has a jauntier angle but I don't like to see a sharp angle where the tail and the back meet. I've been selecting for tails with an angle much closer to 70 degrees as I personally feel our high tails are probably results of the Fayoumi and hatchery stock Leghorn that was added in. I also shy away from a tail that looks like it's "pushing" the bird forward. I like to see the tail with a staight leading edge, or at least prefer that to a curved edge. We often times see (particularly in the females and easily recognized in the photos above) a tail that spreads well. In my observations of the historical pictures I don't think their spread was as wide and deep. However, Campines and Leghorns have a well spread tail and some Fayoumis do as well so it stands to reason why we're seeing it. I like to see a nice "medium" spread on the tail. An overly spread tail can look thin as each feather spreads apart from the feathers next to it, particularly so at the end of the feather. So, I selected for tails that spread, but still held together well....if that makes any sense. Medium length to the tails on both sexes with wide tail feathers. The wider the better, it adds to the fulness of the tail.

Now, concerning the sickle feathers on the cockbird.....that's another issue to discuss as well. I've seen some cockbirds with long, wide, rounded sickles and they looked really neat. Historically, I don't think they breed possessed them.....but again, can't prove it. So, if the breeders want to keep that tail, then I see no issue keeping it. And to be honest, I'll probably select for sickles that are on the longer side of medium before I'd pick the shorter side of medium.

(Getting a little off subject here, I much prefer the breast pattern and coloration of the bottom pullet over the pattern/coloration of the top two pullets. I've selected almost all my pullets with pattern/coloration of the bottom pullet...........)

 

[karimw]

Thanks Curt! Lots of good information there, but for this topic help me focus on a single "perfect bird". Specifically right now I'd like to hear opinions on the profile view. I have seen them with rather pinched tails and some very broad viewed from the side.

So we want a broad tail with wide overlapping feathers. How far down should the bottom feather extend? Perhaps level with the edge of the wing?
The leading edge should have straight feathers?
Back flat, with no cushion
Back meets tail with a slight curve to 70 degrees? 80?
Tail is medium to long in length. How does one see this? Roughly as long or longer than the birds neck?

 

[IowaBlueCurt]

I hesitantly post this outline as I'm not the best artist and clearly this wouldn't be called "perfect". That said this is very close to the shape I selected for in my flock. I've got a long ways to get there, but this is a real close idea of what I see when I think of an Iowa Blue hen.
Before I go any further, our historical information leaves us with very little to go off of when looking at pictures. What is the ideal tail? The perfect tail? The standard committee is going to have to figure that one out......There's a ton of room for interpretation there. Based on what I see in the pictures, the above hen is what I've been shooting for. But that doesn't mean it's the perfect tail.......
Once thing that seems "somewhat" consistant in the historical pictures is that the top tail feathers and the bottom tail feathers are parallel to eachother or nearly parallel. Both having an angle of around 70 degrees. The tails seem broad and full, not necessarily because the hen spreading her feathers out but rather from the feathers themselves being broad in shape. As the tail feathers get wider, the tail begins to look fuller and "broader" simply because of the nature of the wider feathers.
Notice now the top tail feathers are much longer than the bottom tail feathers. This seems pretty consistant with the historical pics as well.

Just my thoughts here, if the feathers extend to the wing carriage and are all the same length, we'll have a tail that looks very much like a leghorn tail. A Leghorny tail isn't necessarily "bad" or "wrong" as we don't have a clear detail of the breed's historic tail shape. The tail in the above diagram is longer than a Rock tail and shorter than a Leghorn tail which seems to match up with the couple of first hand accounts that we have. That's what I would describe as a "medium long" tail....

Now, my disclaimer.........the above diagram is not the "perfect" hen, but simply my idea of what I see and invision. As the Standard Committee works through their re-workings, I expect my idea of the perfect bird to change and morph to incorporate the changes the Committee will roll out.

 

[IowaBlueCurt]

Based on the pictures of your three hens, my opinion is that the bottom pullet has a tail that is closest to what I see as the perfect tail. If her top angle was lower to a 70 degree, her tail would be quite close to what I invision. By looks of the pictures when you compare each hen's top feathers to her bottom feathers, the bottom pullet has the greatest difference in lengths. Also, she's got a nice "spread" without looking like she's fanning her tail.

Just my thoughts.

 

[IowaBlueCurt]

Kari and Connie, maybe you two could sketch out an outline of what you see when you think of an Iowa Blue hen?

 

[FlashPointFarm]

I see a lot of breeders making a silhouette from a photo, and blowing it up life size. It's a fabulous idea that I plan on doing!

 

[WVDan44]

A major set back and I'm feeling a bit discouraged right now. I finally have an sp cockerel out of the eggs I've hatched which I guess is the good news. So now the bad news, it has a wry tail. I'm pretty aggravated over it. He is a handsome fella and I hate that this has happened. I need to think hard about what I want to do at this point.

Looks like good news; after doing some research into Wry Tail, I found out that this condition is caused by an unnatural curvature at the end of the spine. This can be checked by feeling the spine toward the tail end. Also, as Hurley pointed out, this bird does not always hold its tail to the side. I have determined that my diagnosis was premature, and that my bird probably does not have wry tail. With wry tail, the tail is permanently in a side or downward position because of the defective curvature of the spine. Thanks to all for your advice and encouragement.

Dan

 

[WVDan44]

Kari and Connie, maybe you two could sketch out an outline of what you see when you think of an Iowa Blue hen?

Excellent idea. sketch your mind's image of what you believe to be the ideal Iowa Blue. When I think of the roosters for example, I think a flat back is an interesting concept, but when I image the birds, my mind's eye has the back slightly tilted back toward the tail. I also have an image of the length of back, which I deem more important than angle, being neither too short nor too long but proportionally attractive to the overall shape. That's just my current image of the back area. I see a slightly tilted back, could accept a flat back as the standard, but either must be proportionally pleasing in length.

 

[WVDan44]

I hesitantly post this outline as I'm not the best artist and clearly this wouldn't be called "perfect". That said this is very close to the shape I selected for in my flock. I've got a long ways to get there, but this is a real close idea of what I see when I think of an Iowa Blue hen.
Before I go any further, our historical information leaves us with very little to go off of when looking at pictures. What is the ideal tail? The perfect tail? The standard committee is going to have to figure that one out......There's a ton of room for interpretation there. Based on what I see in the pictures, the above hen is what I've been shooting for. But that doesn't mean it's the perfect tail.......
Once thing that seems "somewhat" consistant in the historical pictures is that the top tail feathers and the bottom tail feathers are parallel to eachother or nearly parallel. Both having an angle of around 70 degrees. The tails seem broad and full, not necessarily because the hen spreading her feathers out but rather from the feathers themselves being broad in shape. As the tail feathers get wider, the tail begins to look fuller and "broader" simply because of the nature of the wider feathers.
Notice now the top tail feathers are much longer than the bottom tail feathers. This seems pretty consistant with the historical pics as well.

Just my thoughts here, if the feathers extend to the wing carriage and are all the same length, we'll have a tail that looks very much like a leghorn tail. A Leghorny tail isn't necessarily "bad" or "wrong" as we don't have a clear detail of the breed's historic tail shape. The tail in the above diagram is longer than a Rock tail and shorter than a Leghorn tail which seems to match up with the couple of first hand accounts that we have. That's what I would describe as a "medium long" tail....

Now, my disclaimer.........the above diagram is not the "perfect" hen, but simply my idea of what I see and invision. As the Standard Committee works through their re-workings, I expect my idea of the perfect bird to change and morph to incorporate the changes the Committee will roll out.

very nice proportions and a good effort I think.

 

[karimw]

I see a lot of breeders making a silhouette from a photo, and blowing it up life size. It's a fabulous idea that I plan on doing!

This is what I thought when I saw Curt's wonderful sketch! Looking for black paper now…...

Looks like good news; after doing some research into Wry Tail, I found out that this condition is caused by an unnatural curvature at the end of the spine. This can be checked by feeling the spine toward the tail end. Also, as Hurley pointed out, this bird does not always hold its tail to the side. I have determined that my diagnosis was premature, and that my bird probably does not have wry tail. With wry tail, the tail is permanently in a side or downward position because of the defective curvature of the spine. Thanks to all for your advice and encouragement.

Dan

This is good info, Dan! I will share with people who ask me about this. Perhaps we should put it on the website with the other traits to watch for. It is common in the breed and I'd hate for someone to cull a bird prematurely.

very nice proportions and a good effort I think.

X2!