Line breeding: how do I get started?

[gjensen]

I agree that the genetic make up of the egg would be the same. But I have heard that you shouldn't hatch pullet eggs.

I do not think tat it is ideal to breed from pullets. I would prefer for them to prove their livability. For example, waiting may have prevented the breeding of a pullet tat would have become egg bound etc. I also cannot evaluate them completely until they are trough their first laying cycle, through their molt, and up to when they pick back up laying.
That is not saying that I have not or will not breed some pullets. There may be smaller chicks from the smaller eggs, but they catch up fast. The offspring sees no ill effect fro the age of the dam.

 

[gjensen]

Idk if this has been covered, didn't get a chance to read the whole forum yet but here is some info I came across awhile back. Not sure who the author is or who originally posted it though, so all credit to unknown helpful person.


**** I believe this to be the most practical and probably the best overall breeding system for poultry. It simply consists of breeding cocks to pullets and cockerels to hens. Yes, it requires at least two pens for each breed or variety, but it requires minimal record keeping, prevents extremes in breeding and helps to select for both vigor and uniformity. The system is also relatively forgiving of mistakes in selection or an introduction of new stock that does not combine well with an established flock. These problems will tend to correct themselves in future cycles.
Here is the formula for starting with a trio of Javas. (Note: Most old time breeders would not use less than two trios of anything, because that was not “deep enough” and preferred a “breeding” of two males and eight to ten hens).
But, in this case, we are starting with an initial trio. Let us say in a single season we raise thirty Javas (15 of each sex). From these, we would keep the three best males and eight or ten of the best females. The rest we sell or eat. The next breeding season, the old male is mated to the pullets and the best cockerel is mated to the old hens. The other two cockerels are spares and show birds. A rule of thumb is always to keep at least half as many spare males as you had breeding males and never keep less than two. This system can be expanded to any size, but when in full swing, it should have at least four males and twenty females.
The following year the two old cocks (the cockerel is over a year old now) are teamed with the 10 best pullets. The young (year old) hens join their mothers with the two best cockerels and the system is now running well.
After each season, the old birds are combined and culled to the two best cocks and the best ten hens. The best two cockerels and the ten best pullets are selected from the young birds. The pullets are teamed with the cocks and the hens with the cockerels. The breeder is ready for the following season.
Old time breeder, Bruce Lentz, would often have “side matings”. This might be unrelated stock from another breeder or culls that had one or more very desirable characteristics. He might work with these birds for years until he got them to the desired state of perfection. Then, they would be slowly worked in on the pullet and cockerel side of his regular matings.
The complaints I have heard about this system are that it is too easy; anybody can do it; it is not breeding, and it depends upon your ability to select breeders or cull.
The answer? It is easy; anybody can do it; it is breeding, and any system depends upon your ability to select breeders. This system will maintain a viable population while you develop the art. ********

May help you get started if anything, hope it helps!

That was written by Craig Russell, and it was in an SPPA bulletin. I agree that it is a good way to start, though I would call it a modified version of flock mating. One thing that stuck out to me this time, that did not the last time I read it, is the mention of side mating. I have come to appreciate the freedom of side mating. It gives room for creativity and experimentation, in otherwise rigid system.
The point I appreciated most was Mr. Russell's mention that it still depends on selection. Regardless of the method, our ability to select is key.

 

[3riverschick]

That was written by Craig Russell, and it was in an SPPA bulletin. I agree that it is a good way to start, though I would call it a modified version of flock mating. One thing that stuck out to me this time, that did not the last time I read it, is the mention of side mating. I have come to appreciate the freedom of side mating. It gives room for creativity and experimentation, in otherwise rigid system.
The point I appreciated most was Mr. Russell's mention that it still depends on selection. Regardless of the method, our ability to select is key.

Hi !

Yup, Yup Yup. I have Walt's strain in pure form. I also have a side project going on that is a real nice strain-cross.
I am excited about both and have chicks in each project of various ages growing out. Am excited to see how selection
differs in the two projects tho both are large fowl Light Sussex. Folk on BYC get so excited arout cross-breeding. The
real fun is in strain-rossing within a breed. One gets to improve a breed without running intthe extreme genetic variation
of a cross-bred bird. I understand the psychology behind cross-breeding but frankly the vast majority of cross-breeders
quit in frustration because of the genetic variation... when they could have achieved success with a strain-cross within
a breed.
Best,
Karen

 

[chooks4life]

Just to be clear, you are saying you only begin breeding at full maturity or at 1 year of age? or how do you determine the right age to begin breeding? is it after the first full molt?

shouldn't the genetic makeup of the egg be the same, whether it was laid by a 7 month old pullet or a 12 month old? I am also learning about line breeding, and I have never understood this aspect of it. I guess in some cases, you may be waiting for 1 year old maturity so you can be sure of the traits you are breeding. I know in BLRW in particular, they can show up with double lacing after their first molt although it was never there before (cull trait)...

The quality of the genetics both parents pass on is heavily influenced by their state of health and age, i.e. you've probably heard that older animals are more likely to pass on genetic defects. Younger parents have less to contribute to their offspring and this is particularly visible from the female's side. This is a common trait shown in most species, very young parents almost always produce lower grade offspring than they will later produce when older. Much of modern commercial agriculture depends on breeding as young as possible though, but that used to be considered very unwise.

I breed them young only for edibles, because instead of having to pick culls from a uniformly good group i.e. from prime-age breedings, when I breed them underage I get uniformly less high-quality individuals. They'd be considered fine by any normal standards until you see them standing next to their siblings from later prime-age breedings of their parents. No comparison.

The quality of eggs and sperm is not constant and always 'A1 grade' all throughout the animals' reproductive lives, there are significant differences noted in early and late lifetime generally speaking. Even in species where the female is born with her eggs already present, there is variability in the quality of the eggs released and ripened when very young, mature, and very old.

For this reason it's also a good idea to be cautious in breeding males or females who recently went through something severe like a toxicity or illness... Theoretically the eggs/sperm are still carrying the same genes, but in practice you can get deformed clutches or less healthy ones anyway from breeding too close to such an event even if theoretically it should not have been able to affect the genetics.

It's not the clearest subject for sure, definitely worth digging through the studies on it, but many people observe this 'underage parents produce weakly offspring' rule of thumb, while others believe it's some kind of old wives' tale or myth. Your own experiences will confirm or dismiss it to you, but I'd bet you'll only see if confirmed, as that's always been my experience. It's akin to the 'cage eggs have the same nutritional makeup as free range eggs' concept --- yes, they do, but in much lesser quantities almost as a rule. An egg is still an egg, but you taste the difference. It's the same with the offspring of too-young parents, breed the same parents in another year and compare the offspring and suddenly not all 'eggs' are equal.

Definitely an experiment anyone wanting to breed should try just because it's simple and educational. I'm a bit aghast at the fact that most turkeys around my area are descended from males under a year old because most people cull them before their first birthday. Experience with various species tells me that's not good.

I have kept some offspring from younger parents as they've become family pets, but they tend to have worse appearances, be less hardy, just generally fall below the standard of later generations from the same parents at older ages.

As for determining the right age of breeding to obtain potential breeding stock, it's basically just 'in good health, at a minimum of a year old' --- that seems pretty true across the board even with early maturing individuals/breeds compared to later maturing individuals/breeds.

I'm also having to rethink what prime age is, all my hens approaching 5 years old have shown significant changes in wattle size, body size, patterning, etc, and it's not explainable by breed because there are many unrelated lines among them. :/ I thought such late continued development was a feature of only a few breeds, primarily long lived ones like some Japanese bantams, or so I'd heard. I do know most of my males put on significant size after their first birthday, up to almost twice the size in their second year.

Best wishes.

 

[tridentk9]

The quality of the genetics both parents pass on is heavily influenced by their state of health and age, i.e. you've probably heard that older animals are more likely to pass on genetic defects. Younger parents have less to contribute to their offspring. This is a common trait shown in most species, very young parents almost always produce lower grade offspring than they will later produce when older.


Best wishes.

Epigenetics. Diet, environment and stress level also can affect offspring, sometimes for generations.

Another good post from chooks4life showing how having good records is vital if you want to improve or change your flock.

 

[gjensen]

Once a pullet is laying reasonable sized eggs, the offspring will see no ill effect because of the pullet's age. Period. This is coming from someone that prefers and believes in sticking with hens, but for different reasons.

Environment, stress, and poor diet will certainly effect the viability of the offspring, just as it did the parent.

 

[chooks4life]

Once a pullet is laying reasonable sized eggs, the offspring will see no ill effect because of the pullet's age. Period.

My experience has been different to yours, obviously, it's directly contrary to what you're stating, but each to their own, I guess. My experience doesn't necessarily make yours invalid and neither does yours make mine invalid.

There have been many studies done on various species detailing the differences between offspring from younger, older and 'prime-age' parents, and on the differences in offspring based on generational exposure to stimuli or pathogens or diet changes etc, pretty much any decent scientific site will have some interesting stuff to look through there, but generally done on other species than chooks... However in my experience it still holds true, they're more universal application rules of thumb than not. They apply to animals in general, basically.

As tridentk9 said --- epigenetics. It has much to do with everything. That's one big frontier yet to be mapped and it's fascinating how complex it is, it holds answers to many questions we don't yet have figured out.

Best wishes.

 

[gjensen]

My experience has been different to yours, obviously, it's directly contrary to what you're stating, but each to their own, I guess. My experience doesn't necessarily make yours invalid and neither does yours make mine invalid.

There have been many studies done on various species detailing the differences between offspring from younger, older and 'prime-age' parents, and on the differences in offspring based on generational exposure to stimuli or pathogens or diet changes etc, pretty much any decent scientific site will have some interesting stuff to look through there, but generally done on other species than chooks... However in my experience it still holds true, they're more universal application rules of thumb than not. They apply to animals in general, basically.

As tridentk9 said --- epigenetics. It has much to do with everything. That's one big frontier yet to be mapped and it's fascinating how complex it is, it holds answers to many questions we don't yet have figured out.

Best wishes.

You are correct. Epigenetics is a very complex and poorly understood subject. With that in mind, I would be cautious about attributing anything I see to it. That field is not understood well enough for layman to feel like they understand it either. Much of it has no real consensus, and it's effects have been long debated. Certainly there is evidence of it's influence, but if the experts do not understand it, I would be cautious about it. Also it is more about cell development, than it is about the actual DNA chain. We are not talking about mutations. Then it is often not heritable, though occasionally it is. In the wild, it is more often seen in plants than it is in animals.

We are a long ways off from understanding it, and much of what we see now is speculation and chatter. What we hold as truth today, may be different tomorrow. I agree that it is an interesting topic, but if the experts are still debating it or do not have a grip on it, I certainly will not go there. I do not like throwing around names and subjects that I do not fully understand. Especially when it is poorly understood by the experts. I do like that it receiving more attention by the experts.

What we do agree on is good health, vigor, feed, water, and environment. To me that is good husbandry, and common sense. I do not need anything to explain it's importance. That is clear and easily understood. We also agree that the bird should be mature enough to produce viable offspring. For a pullet, that is when her eggs have reached a reasonable size and she has laid for a time. At that point, her offspring will be as viable as they ever will be. Her eggs will not be the size they will ultimately reach, and therefore the chicks will nor be as large. Those chicks, all else being equal (and good management), will reach their genetic potential. By the time the feather out, the averages are similar.

I will use the article above as an example that is easy to reference. The writer of that article describes using pullets as part of that breeding plan. The writer of that article has bred ore birds than all of us put together. I assure that if he had experience tat was contrary would be aware, and would not recommend a breeding plan that used pullets.

I realize that I am not going to convince you, and that is fine. It has been a interesting discussion anyways.

I do prefer breeding hens, but it is for a ore complete evaluation. Not because mature pullets cannot produce viable offspring.

 

[3riverschick]

As tridentk9 said --- epigenetics. It has much to do with everything. That's one big frontier yet to be mapped and it's fascinating how complex it is, it holds answers to many questions we don't yet have figured out.

Best wishes.

Hum, some folk on BYC don't even get genetic shorthand, . I have studied epigenetics. A fascinating arena of thought.
I have a collie breeder friend who has used it extensively for health in her private life and in her collie breeding program
with astonishing positive results. That said, these were mammals, not avian. It's a whole different thing. Tesio, Bohannon,
and others have addressed epigenetics in mammals when they didn't even know what it was. Even when one is discussing
animals , the subjects of changes in microsatellites and the effects of epigenesis on the major histocompatabiity complex (MHC)
are way beyond anything the average breeder needs to succeed. For most of us, "the art of breeding" plus a dash of
genetics is all we need to succeed. Fun Fact: goldfish use their sense of smell to select spouses who will produce most productive
MHC in their young.
Best Regards,
Karen

 

[gjensen]

Hi !

Yup, Yup Yup. I have Walt's strain in pure form. I also have a side project going on that is a real nice strain-cross.
I am excited about both and have chicks in each project of various ages growing out. Am excited to see how selection
differs in the two projects tho both are large fowl Light Sussex. Folk on BYC get so excited arout cross-breeding. The
real fun is in strain-rossing within a breed. One gets to improve a breed without running intthe extreme genetic variation
of a cross-bred bird. I understand the psychology behind cross-breeding but frankly the vast majority of cross-breeders
quit in frustration because of the genetic variation... when they could have achieved success with a strain-cross within
a breed.
Best,
Karen

I have a grading project that I am doing on the side.