Line breeding: how do I get started?

[gjensen]

As far as I understand, it is a question, and a legitimate one at that.

How is mammalian breeding 'very different' when having accounted for the aspects tridentk9 already took stock of?

3riverschick, I'd have thought, and some others on this thread/site should surely be able to answer that seemingly simple question in some depth, or at least I'd gained that impression anyway. Even some basics explained on the reasons that there are stated to be vast differences between avian and mammalian breeding would go a long way.

As far as I've seen this answer has not been given yet. I doubt it's anything approaching a simple answer though, but still, it remains in need of answers. Just because the person asking the question has not yet found an answer that addresses their question comprehensively, doesn't mean that person is asking a fallacious question. Seems there's a bunch of filters we're all seeing through here and meeting in the middle without bias or misunderstanding is hit-and-miss. I don't think anyone's attempting to shoot down anybody else's opinions here, at least I hope not since that's counterproductive and disrespectful.

Best wishes, looking forward to people's answers.

I said that the concepts were the same. She already has my answer.

She has no real interest in learning anything about breeding poultry.

 

[gjensen]

Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people.

Eleanor Roosevelt


I'm not on the great mind level. I can only try. It is a good thought to remember during discussions.

Or endlessly and mindlessly discuss hypotheticals.

 

[tridentk9]

I said that the concepts were the same. She already has my answer.

She has no real interest in learning anything about breeding poultry.

What? Another ad hominem attack! Oh George your mother must be so proud of you. Bless your heart but you're showing stamina in continuing to attack the person instead of debating the ideas.

ROFL- you ended up agreeing with me after you were shown the errors in your statements. I guess my theories were self-evident if all the rhetoric and snottiness of your group of poultry breeders had to finally agree with a mammalian breeder. Must be a let-down. As I said Breeding Is Breeding.

I think I'll repeat something that some breeders really need to read again and again.

ALL the people I've known that are top in their field accept that they can learn something from newcomers to the field and even from people in other fields seemingly unrelated to their work focus. The ones who feel that only their peers, and then only those that agree with them, know anything- well they stagnate. They just rehash and gossip. Sigh, and some of them can be quite nasty when their comfort zone is breached.

Keep poultry breeding boring and pedantic, continue pushing away newcomers, stiffling different ideas and soon there won't be any new converts to continue with your breeds. Can't blame others for that- it's your own fault.

As far as my not breeding poultry so I must have no interest in learning poultry genetics? Oh cool I can use another fancy term. It's a non sequitur. One does not equal the other.

 

[Yellow House Farm]

1. For clarity, I am a Latin teacher.

2. I think you misunderstand what George and I and several others do here. If you follow through the threads and read them, you will notice that we spend very little time discussing random ideas per se. Rather, our focus is in helping would-be breeders learn the craft of standard-bred poultry breeding, and our discussions remain practical and applicable.

It would appear that you would like to discuss certain ideas for the sake of the idea or to debate for the sake of the debate, which of course has it's time and place. However, if you follow what we have written for the last several seasons, you'll notice that that is not our tone nor our general intention. No one is engaging the debate because it does not serve the purpose of what we are doing here. There are other spaces here where folks discuss all sorts of matter they do not actually practice, but that is not the case here. My realization via your tone and modus dicendi that you do not actually breed poultry was not a mere ad hominem attack for the purpose of reductio ad absurdum, but rather an expression of situation definition that you were seeking to discuss matters not as an example of your practical poultry experience but rather in an effort to sort out imagined ideas. Again, that's a great thing to do, but it's not the general reason for which, I'd argue, most of us come here.

Just a few clarifying observanda,

Best!

 

[Yoyo with chick]

Now... I haven't been breeding poultry for as long as you have, and I love all the help you guys have been giving me. However I simply didn't agree that you guys were bickering over some thing that I personally think shouldn't be in the beginning guide to line breeding. Anyways... Let's put this behind us and move on with the conversation of line breeding and major factors of this technique.
Best wishes from the beginning poultry breeder!

 

[chooks4life]

Now... I haven't been breeding poultry for as long as you have, and I love all the help you guys have been giving me. However I simply didn't agree that you guys were bickering over some thing that I personally think shouldn't be in the beginning guide to line breeding. Anyways... Let's put this behind us and move on with the conversation of line breeding and major factors of this technique.
Best wishes from the beginning poultry breeder!

It's a shame it descended into some personal comments, my intention wasn't to start any debate with that simple observation of fact I made... I think all this was more of a misunderstanding than an actual debate, or bickering, and I think tridentk9 is still being misunderstood here. Anyway, it appears pointless, so hopefully we can consider this abstracted conversation settled and move back onto the main topic.

(Any topic on breeding tends to provoke some heated opinions though, I've read a few threads on breeding on this forum now and generally don't want to join in even to ask a simple question because of the sort of reactions people usually get for merely having a different opinion, you'd just end up provoking more back-and-forth. So good luck keeping your thread clear of it. Might help to have a subtitle stating some 'rules' for keeping the conversation on-track, I don't know.)

What's your aim with your chooks? If I recall correctly you wanted to breed to S.O.P.?

For anyone looking to breed for exhibition or to those sort of standards, this site should be helpful for beginners... (I already gave you a link to this one via PM but might as well provide it for any newbies who come to this thread, or anyone who hasn't found this site before.)

Quote:
Best wishes.

 

[3riverschick]

Hi,

If I was wanting to line-breed, the first thing I would do is surround myself with quality knowledge
which would help me understand what I was seeing in the birds and how to manage cause
and effort for best improvement. These are the 9-10 books I would use as the core of my library
and why :
1. The 2010 APA Standard of Perfection . If you don't know the Standard, it's hard to breed to it.
The 1st 40 pages are extremely educational. http://www.amerpoultryassn.com/store.htm
2. Van Dort, Hancox, and Friends, :The Genetics Of Chicken Colours- The Basics".
An understandable text on "breeding to feather", latter half includes a superb pictorial encyclopedia
of poultry plumage, the pictures are captioned with the genetic formulas. http://www.chickencolours.com/pagina3.html
3. Van Dort, "The Genetics Of Chicken Extremities", A slightly more scientific but readable text
on "breeding to type" devoted to topics not covered in the 1st volume. http://www.chickencolours.com/pagina19.html
4. , Card, Wetherell Henry. , "Laws governing the breeding of standard fowls. ". By a respected
veteran poultry man describing the major and minor breeding laws. Plus the value of (and a
time tested technique) for linebreeding. Despite the book's age, the knowledge is timeless.
Wid Card was Danne Honour's uncle's uncle. http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=chi.087299559;view=1up;seq=5
5. Davis, J. H. "The Art of Breeding". A classic, entertaining book describing the basic philosophies
behind "the art of breeding". http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=coo.31924003135401;view=1up;seq=5
6. Brereton ,Grant , "21st Century Poultry Breeding", A great treatment of breeding techniques
focusing mostly on Wyandottes, yet with information for all to enjoy.
http://poultrykeeper.com/book-reviews/21st-century-poultry-breeding-book-review Available thru http://www.Amazon.com
7. Brian Reeder, "An Introduction to Color Forms of the Domestic Fowl"
http://brianreederbreeder.blogspot.com/
8. Brian Reeder, " An Introduction To Form And Feathering Of The Domestic Fowl"
http://brianreederbreeder.blogspot.com/ Brian writes a column for this ezine: http://www.exhibitionpoultry.net/
9. One or two classic books on one's chosen breed.
Many of these classic books are online. My fav book databases are :
Hathi Trust Digital Library
(some texts not available "full view" outside the USA)
http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/ls?a=page&page=advanced
Google Books
As these old public domain books get reprinted, they often succumb
to "snippet", "preview" or "limited search" options. If you see one you
like, download it.
http://books.google.com/advanced_book_search
The Internet Archive
https://archive.org/
I am having trouble with this site's security certificate , however, I
think it is the new security software I had installed, not the site.
Core Historical Literature of Agriculture (CHLA)
and of course the rest of the Cornell collections. The James Rice Poultry
Collection is esp. fascinating.
http://chla.library.cornell.edu/

This is the core of my breeding library. The only 2 books I have not read are 3 and 8. I look
forward to acquiring them this year, first 3 then 8. There are always more books to read,
however these 9 or 10 will form a a firm foundation on which to begin. If I could only afford 5,
it would be the 1st 5 in descending order. Books 4 and 5 are readable for free online.
Best Regards,
Karen

 

[gjensen]

Some of the best resources are the old books. I enjoy reading them, and especially appreciate the perspective. My only warning would be to be on guard for outdated information. It is easy to believe it all as if it was the gospel. In some instances, we know ore than what we did. In other cases, we have forgotten.
I came to believe a lot that I found to be different later. As the internet is full of bad information, poultry keeping was full of wife's tales. It is only a matter of keeping your mind open, do not assume you know much, and test everything. Pay special attention to perspective and emphasis.

The older information is especially interesting when it is related to breeds or a class of breeds that you are interested in. It helps to get a sense of what they are, the collective effort it took to get them where they are (or were at their prime).
I think the best thing we can do is to have a sincere interest in a given breed, and get a good sense of what they are. It is impossible to make any real progress, unless there is a clear picture of were you are going, and some idea on how to get there. It is impossible to be faithful to a breed, without have a good sense of what they are (or what they were).

The fundamentals of breeding has not and will not change. The basics of inheritance has not changed.

The link to the color genetics resource could be very handy. It is helpful to understand the basics, and the basics behind the color of the breed/variety that you are interested. The knowledge of color genetics will not make you a breeder or not. It is a resource and a tool. You will hear and read of many people that can recite it all from memory, but could not breed mice. I mention this because I see it over emphasized. I am interested in genetics, but their is so much more to the bird than the color of their feathers.
That said, you have to learn the color you want to work with. Especially with poultry. There are no general color requirements and range of tolerances with poultry. They have to be right, and there is more than melanin at play. They are not mammals.
Many of these colors and patterns, you could spend a lifetime on, and still be getting better at breeding it. And doing that as nothing to do with the letters.

For the last five years, or so, I have been interested in black tailed red, black tailed buff, and black tailed white. I am just starting to get a feel for it, and I have a long long ways to go. Balancing the black is a challenge all on it's own. Making sure it is not where it isn't supposed to be, and is where it is supposed to be. It is easier said than done. The requirements are pretty precise.This is why experienced breeders tend to recommend easier colors to beginners. It is easy to get lost in a color starting out. There is a lot to learn, just in the color. The color genetics will help you understand it, but doing it is another matter.
Especially for a variety that is not in good shape, and a ground up type of effort. It is one thing to maintain something, and it is another to build something.

The best educator is the process. You do not become a breeder by reading books, or chatting about it online. You get it by doing it. When you are breeding something with a goal, the progress is rewarding, and the setbacks can be discouraging (or motivating). It can become work, or it can become a pleasure. It does not take long to find out just how interested you are. It costs real money, and it takes real time. A lot of it. It is pretty humbling when you look back and calculate all that you have put into it. Not everyone can or should invest that much.

I like it to gardening. Many envision a huge beautiful garden. They read the books, the till the soil, and they plant the seeds while the enthusiasm is full. Then the eat comes, and the pests, and the weeds, and the diseases. Some, when the work comes, will let it all get away from them. Everyone will have failures and setbacks. Over time, you figure out hat works, what doesn't work, and why. Some will temper their expectations, and some will become even ore passionate. Some will be satisfied with continuing with a few tomato plants every year, and some will remain passionate enough to become master gardeners.
Poultry breeding (or any animal) requires a passion for the breed, dedication, commitment, and the setbacks is something that motivates us all the more. The figuring it out, is half of the fun.

You cannot breed animals on paper or the internet.

The breeds need people that will actually learn to breed them, and actually breed them for improvement.

There is no magic in line breeding. Quite a few years ago, I had some mixed reds. I knew nothing of breeding poultry, the internet, the APA, etc. etc. I just like having some birds. There was one male that I grew out that stuck out to me. I liked that bird, so I decided to breed him. I instinctively did not want to breed him to his sisters, so I bred him to the hens I had. I picked a son that was an awful lot like him, and used him on his father's sisters (his aunts).
My point is that was my first experience with line breeding, even before I knew what it was called. I just liked a bird, and I wanted more like him. I began to favor hens, and think along these lines. Now keep in mind, these were from feed store chick. I knew just a little less than I know now, but the point is that it is not rocket science.
It is an organized, structured method, to move a population in a positive direction using the resources that you have. There is a number of plans, methods, likes, and dislikes. You get familiar with options, but you end up going with what suits you, your circumstances, and goals.

All of this is coming from a beginner. I am no master breeder, or expert. I just enjoy the birds, and I am enjoying trying my hand at it. It is a very rewarding hobby for someone that really enjoys the birds, and in particular a certain breed.

 

[tridentk9]

Besides the increased and changed knowledge of genetics, a problem with most of the older books on breeding are the size of the operation. The majority of livestock owners/authors were wealthy with large numbers of animals and a sizable staff. It allowed them a lot more leeway in what could be done. Don't like the result? They could toss out several hundred birds without it affecting their whole operation. Feed, water and clean the animals? They had staff for that. It shortened the time needed for improvement or changes. The knowledge of genetics has changed too, IMO an advanced degree is not needed but basics are. Even more information is required if you're trying to alter several characteristics. The principles of breeding and genetics are universal, if your only friend that breeds works with another species, talk to them about breeding. Breeding is breeding, poultry color and pattern genes follow the same rules as other species.

One way dog breeders utilize is to have satellite breeders, several people keep the animals and follow breeding plans made by the head breeder. The head breeder is involved in the animals but doesn't have to keep such large numbers at their house. Done right, it works well for mammals. Apparently poultry are different so it may not work with chickens.

My suggestion is to get knowledge from wherever you can. Go ahead and use books and internet discussions. When too many restrictions are placed on how you obtain knowledge you decimate your knowledge base. Especially when it takes so much money, time (and the ability to have roosters) to actually be a breeder.

You do not become a breeder by reading books, or chatting about it online. You get it by doing it. When you are breeding something with a goal, the progress is rewarding, and the setbacks can be discouraging (or motivating). It can become work, or it can become a pleasure. It does not take long to find out just how interested you are. It costs real money, and it takes real time. A lot of it. It is pretty humbling when you look back and calculate all that you have put into it. Not everyone can or should invest that much.

 

[gjensen]

Besides the increased and changed knowledge of genetics, a problem with most of the older books on breeding are the size of the operation. The majority of livestock owners/authors were wealthy with large numbers of animals and a sizable staff. It allowed them a lot more leeway in what could be done. Don't like the result? They could toss out several hundred birds without it affecting their whole operation. Feed, water and clean the animals? They had staff for that. It shortened the time needed for improvement or changes. The knowledge of genetics has changed too, IMO an advanced degree is not needed but basics are. Even more information is required if you're trying to alter several characteristics. The principles of breeding and genetics are universal, if your only friend that breeds works with another species, talk to them about breeding. Breeding is breeding, poultry color and pattern genes follow the same rules as other species.

One way dog breeders utilize is to have satellite breeders, several people keep the animals and follow breeding plans made by the head breeder. The head breeder is involved in the animals but doesn't have to keep such large numbers at their house. Done right, it works well for mammals. Apparently poultry are different so it may not work with chickens.

My suggestion is to get knowledge from wherever you can. Go ahead and use books and internet discussions. When too many restrictions are placed on how you obtain knowledge you decimate your knowledge base. Especially when it takes so much money, time (and the ability to have roosters) to actually be a breeder.

I never discouraged anyone from reading etc. LOL. I read as much as I can, and whenever I can. A good find is a treasure. The missed point was that you can memorize all of the latest and greatest genetics books and still not be able to breed a variety. The main point was to emphasize the doing. Of course the more information that you can gather, the better.

And it certainly takes some time and money. It does not happen instantaneously, and the feed and housing is not free. I am not a wealthy person, so I certainly take notice of what I spend.

It is not a position that you aspire to. LOL. It just something that you decide to try, and if you enjoy it, are passionate enough about it, and have a sense of commitment, you keep doing it. It is a hobby to enjoy. That is all it is. You just have to get into it and do it to get it. You will never get anywhere unless you start. LOL. I enjoy my birds, and I learn more every year. The birds themselves will teach you a lot.

If we enjoy it enough to stick at it over a length of time, we could possibly get pretty good at it. Never will unless we start though.