Line breeding: how do I get started?

[3riverschick]

Hi Trident,
Cute pups. What breed of dog are they?
Best,
Karen

 

[tridentk9]

 I never discouraged anyone from reading etc. LOL. I read as much as I can, and whenever I can. A good find is a treasure. The missed point was that you can memorize all of the latest and greatest genetics books and still not be able to breed a variety. The main point was to emphasize the doing. Of course the more information that you can gather, the better.

 And it certainly takes some time and money. It does not happen instantaneously, and the feed and housing is not free. I am not a wealthy person, so I certainly take notice of what I spend.

 It is not a position that you aspire to. LOL. It just something that you decide to try, and if you enjoy it, are passionate enough about it, and have a sense of commitment, you keep doing it. It is a hobby to enjoy. That is all it is. You just have to get into it and do it to get it. You will never get anywhere unless you start. LOL. I enjoy my birds, and I learn more every year. The birds themselves will teach you a lot.

 If we enjoy it enough to stick at it over a length of time, we could possibly get pretty good at it. Never will unless we start though.

In reality George what you really need to know to follow your plan is an eye for the bird. It can be done without breeding by going to shows though visiting breeders is difficult with biosecurity. Some people have it, some people need to learn it and some never do. To use the old phrase- some have twenty years in breeding and some have one year repeated twenty times. It's not the length of time nor the number of clutches- it's what you learn.

Using Craig Russell's breeding plan I can see a serious problem in that longevity, long term vitality nor long term egg production are bred for. His system discards birds before really testing their full potential. I also can see a problem with the potential for bottlenecks. You potentially could end up with all pullets and the cockerel being full siblings, sired by the cock to be used for the pullets and out of one of the hens to be bred to the cockerel. This is the very situation that can cause longevity, vigor and fertility problems.

If the side breeding brings in hens to add new genes there will be no change in any of sex-linked traits. I understand not bringing in a cock to use as a flock sire- but the new hens aren't being thrown in the hen group either. A pen with a new cock and a few hens hand picked to complement him might be as good if not a better choice. His hens could change yearly and yet still kept separate from the main breeding groups. You'd get new genes from the Z chromosome, could be that is what is needed.

posted by Yellow House Farm: Don't worry about any RC genetic issues they actually will not impact the backyard breeder.

yet by the time you do inbreeding it has a higher risk. When you add in lowered Major Histocompatability Complex with it's risk of lowered fertility in both sexes and you've increased the risks.

In Poultry Breeding & Genetics:

Page 192
Poor fertility is associated with R/R males in at least several breeds. Fertility of R/r+ and r+/r+ males & of all 3 genotypes of females is perfectly normal. Sperm cells from R/R males have some fertilizing capability, but they cannot compete with sperm cells from R/r+ males in multiple sire matings. This can explain persistance of the single comb allele in rose-combed populations.

Page 448
A large single gene effect is the poor fertility of males homozygous for the rose comb gene. Mating frequency is lower and duration of fertility after a single insemination is shorter for R/R males. The motility of their spermatozoa after storage is inferior and certain enzymatic activities differ. The He locus which modifies the appearance of rose comb may also be associated with a difference in male fertility.
Crawford (1990) Poultry Breeding and Genetics. Elsevier, Amsterdam.
(recent reprint, now available for sale.)

All is not lost though, a recent study showed that the rose comb gene is actually two genes labeled R1 and R2. Only R1 has the problem and it must be R1R1 for the problem to manifest.

Interesting that edelras.nl recommends genetic theory web sites that are NOT poultry based.

 

[3riverschick]

Hi Trident,
What breed of dog are they?
Best,
Karen

 

[gjensen]

LOL.

 

[gjensen]

In reality George what you really need to know to follow your plan is an eye for the bird. It can be done without breeding by going to shows though visiting breeders is difficult with biosecurity. Some people have it, some people need to learn it and some never do. To use the old phrase- some have twenty years in breeding and some have one year repeated twenty times. It's not the length of time nor the number of clutches- it's what you learn.

Using Craig Russell's breeding plan I can see a serious problem in that longevity, long term vitality nor long term egg production are bred for. His system discards birds before really testing their full potential. I also can see a problem with the potential for bottlenecks. You potentially could end up with all pullets and the cockerel being full siblings, sired by the cock to be used for the pullets and out of one of the hens to be bred to the cockerel. This is the very situation that can cause longevity, vigor and fertility problems.

If the side breeding brings in hens to add new genes there will be no change in any of sex-linked traits. I understand not bringing in a cock to use as a flock sire- but the new hens aren't being thrown in the hen group either. A pen with a new cock and a few hens hand picked to complement him might be as good if not a better choice. His hens could change yearly and yet still kept separate from the main breeding groups. You'd get new genes from the Z chromosome, could be that is what is needed.
yet by the time you do inbreeding it has a higher risk. When you add in lowered Major Histocompatability Complex with it's risk of lowered fertility in both sexes and you've increased the risks.
All is not lost though, a recent study showed that the rose comb gene is actually two genes labeled R1 and R2. Only R1 has the problem and it must be R1R1 for the problem to manifest.

Interesting that edelras.nl recommends genetic theory web sites that are NOT poultry based.

I am going to point why it is impossible to make any progress with you. You are so eager to debate and come out on top, that you miss what is said.

I am not going to go back and find them, and quote them. BUT . . . if you do . . .you will find that I stressed developing a sense of a breed. Not just get an eye for type, but understand why they have the type that they do. Anyone that has ever read my posts knows that I stress that, because it has been helpful to me. Many of us never get a sense of what a breed is and why it is the way it is (Or should be). Nothing has been more helpful to me than getting a feel for what a breed is. I bring it up often because it seams it would be helpful to others, and is often overlooked.
Going to the shows, good ones, could certainly be helpful. Not just to see the birds, but get around people that really do it. Most are helpful, and are generous with their time. Poultry people tend to be opinionated, but they are also a generous bunch. Generous with their time, their experiences, and even generous with their birds.
Many breeds are not represented at the shows. I have one where I would have to go thousands of miles to see.


Your point about what we learn, or not, is well taken. I like to say that the birds tell on us. Our birds speak for us. We are either moving forward or moving backwards. Others see it even when we cannot. I would like to add that is as much about what we do, as much as it is about we know. You still can't breed them on paper. And you will not learn it all in a season. It is not instantaneous. None of us are omniscient or omnipotent. Do not dismiss what comes with experience. I do not think that you would, if you had any.

I know many "experts".

You are probably more intelligent than myself. Maybe you can learn it all before you start, but that was not the case for me. I am still learning and trying to learn. I am no expert. I do not think that I ever will be. The more I know, the more I realize that I do not know.

Maybe you will be the exception, and become the first master breeder before you even get your first cock bird. Is there a breed of poultry that you are interested in? One that catches your eye and attention? Most people start out breeding poultry with an interest in a breed or class of breeds.

I am certain problems could be found with Mr. Russels "plan". Keep in mind that it is a summary intended to communicate "a plan". It is not a directive on how to do it all. LOL. There is no perfect plan, and the reason I commented on not becoming infatuated with a plan or plans. Everyone finds their own way.
BUT . . you can go a long time with that plan. No plan lasts forever. And I missed where you would end up breeding siblings. I think that you misunderstood something somewhere.

You also do not realize how much variability is in that qty., and how much variability could be had with enough hatching.

Many people go a long time with a lot less. A couple males and eight females. That is not deep enough for my tastes, but many are successful for a long time like that. They might exchange males with someone after five years. Some people have partners so that they can. Your best is in the few, so it could be argued to focus on the few. A quality over quantity thing.

Your point on using a cock bird rather than a female could be valid. I have a project now where I used a male, but will be switching to females in the same line. The reference using a female is a matter of influence. What you are missing is that what is often needed is not a complete genetic exchange, and their could be a desire to protect the progress that is being made.

There is a lot of ways to do a lot of things. The possibilities are endless. People feed their birds differently, breed them differently, house them differently, etc. Everyone finds their own way. The birds say whether or not what we do or do not is any good. The proof is in the pudding kind of thing. If you are making progress then what you do and know is working. If you are not, then all that you know is not working. Something is missing. You cannot make tat progress on paper, but you can enjoy learning a lot.

Who I pay attention to is the few exceptional breeders that there are out there. There are not many of them. A few visit this board, and I am not one of them.

I will let you guys have the rest of tis conversation. I do not see where any progress is being made. The OP got a summary of the ideas behind line breeding.

 

[tridentk9]

I am not going to go back and find them, and quote them. BUT . . . if you do . . .you will find that I stressed developing a sense of a breed. Not just get an eye for type, but understand why they have the type that they do. Anyone that has ever read my posts knows that I stress that, because it has been helpful to me. Many of us never get a sense of what a breed is and why it is the way it is (Or should be). Nothing has been more helpful to me than getting a feel for what a breed is. I bring it up often because it seams it would be helpful to others, and is often overlooked./QUOTE]

I started in a dog breed with a puppy from the third US bred litter. There were less than 50 dogs in the US. Fewer genetic individuals. Geneticists say it takes 200-250 *unique* individuals at a minimum for a population to continue. Books were non existent, english or otherwise, though there were some wildly innaccurate articles. I wrote emails and called Europe. LOL- working nightshift made the timing easier. I trained my dogs in a version of their original purpose, the closest I could find in the US, and in doing so discovered for myself how this breed was different and unique, how structure and temperament dictated work. Their genetic hardwiring showed in how some exercises and work was innate, only needed fine tuning, the dog questioned the need for other exercises. How they differed from my past breeds and how they were similar. Original purpose dictated drive levels. I got a related breed to compare and learned about that breed too. I researched, I asked questions, I tried it out with my own dogs (dog math exists too). I imported, I exported, I flew females out for breeding, I exported semen I discussed photos, pedigrees and videos of dogs, their work and their offspring with others both in my breed and other breeds. I even had to buy a VCR that could play European videos! And I learned as much as I could.

People started asking me questions and by answering questions I learned more. After twenty years, I still am learning. With my changes in life I've changed the focus of how I use my dogs, but their breed still dictates their training and use. Genetics is an amazing thing, fluid yet firm.

Karen says read books in english on your chosen chicken breed. That wasn't possible, not only weren't they in english- there just weren't any books. Period. I'm used to asking questions and researching instead. It was my method both in personal and professional life because it worked for me. That is how I learn, by finding the problems and questioning why. Reducing variables to their smallest unit to reduce risk. I emphasise the genetics and behavior and how the environment shapes them. I was working with an extremely small gene pool spread from coast to coast in a breed with few founders. I learned about the problems of small gene pools and the very real threat of losing genes for good.

My apologies to those not involved- it was not my desire to use "I" so many times.

You also do not realize how much variability is in that qty., and how much variability could be had with enough hatching.

Even in avians, full siblings count as one when considering the need for *unique* individuals. I'm not sure how it could be misunderstood. If you like a style and are picking birds out- it is understandable that you would pick similar birds.

Poultry people tend to be opinionated, but they are also a generous bunch. Generous with their time, their experiences, and even generous with their birds.

I do not know or understand the initial responses to my mention of epigenetics. It is quite baffling and contradictory to this statement.

Do not dismiss what comes with experience. I do not think that you would, if you had any

Where/when did I dismiss experience? If I did I did not mean to. I believe I questioned the hypothesis that experience is the ONLY way. However I do notice the passive-aggressive wording of your statement. If I had to guess, I'd think you're worried about something.

Maybe you will be the exception, and become the first master breeder before you even get your first cock bird. Is there a breed of poultry that you are interested in? One that catches your eye and attention? Most people start out breeding poultry with an interest in a breed or class of breeds.

Hmm, again if I had to guess, you're scared about something. That first sentence, Is it taking longer than expected to set a trait in your birds? Ahh, finally why do I have poultry? Eggs for the dogs (I don't like eggs), something to eat the bugs and possibly chicken camp. Chicken camp is clicker training with chickens, not the same as freezer camp.

The reference using a female is a matter of influence. What you are missing is that what is often needed is not a complete genetic exchange, and their could be a desire to protect the progress that is being made

I understood that. Yet the point was made specifically not to use a cock but to use two hens. If the trait you want is on the Z chromosome the breeding would be of much less use for that purpose. Resulting cockerels would need hens for breeding- if you use your best hens in the main flock- the cockerel would be given second tier mates, lowering the level of his offspring. If your desire is to improve your MHC levels, hens would help if used. If it's just to use "new blood"- I'm sure you'll agree that without a plan it could be a disaster.


We obviously learn differently. It doesn't make any one way right or wrong. To put it in the most basic way- I question, you experiment. TIF or MIF

 

[chooks4life]

Might be relevant if we could get some experts on linebreeding or just breeding in general onto this thread to state their preferred methods. I'll see if I can get someone to come comment. Or just find some links with some info or plans laid out so people can review it and the varying merits of each plan. I freely admit I'm no expert on breeding, most of my breeding has been watching genetics in play with minimal interference except to remove the worst, at least that's what I did in the first few years. Definitely worth doing I reckon for the educational aspect of it, but then again not everyone's working with mongrels or under the conditions I did (and do).

Best wishes to all. Still detecting some unnecessary and misguided antagonism here IMO, I can't see how it could be more than a misunderstanding, perception of personal attacks where there are none.

 

[Bo Garrett]

There are some good resources on this topic located on the American Bantam Association website. Searching for answers here will result in mostly opinions, of which there are many offered here and I will not offer my own so as to add to the confusion. There are tried and tested methods of line breeding, once you have found a method that best suits your operation stick with it.

 

[chooks4life]

Quote: Quote:
Thanks for the suggestion Bo Garret. Here's what I found when I checked that site. Possibly some very good info for anyone willing to pay to access.

Best wishes.

 

[chooks4life]

Quote: Good overall info but it's for dogs. Still overall quite applicable.

Quote: This info is for poultry.

Quote: This linebreeding chart is obviously for rabbits but was provided by a poultry breeder as "the principles are the same".

Quote: Back to poultry again.

Quote: More poultry linebreeding info.

Quote: And some more poultry info...

Quote: And some more...

Quote: And more linebreeding info for poultry.

That should be more than enough for a newbie to start on, I'd guess.

Best wishes.