Mixed Breed Duckling - Who is the Mama?

[cheezenkwackers]

You need to teach me about duck genetics. This is fascinating even though it made zero sense to me . Sex linking makes slight sense to me, and I get the darker colors typically mean males, but I feel like Swedish ducks should be their own bird entirely with how cool they are with breeding .

I'm mostly confused about this,

what is an allele (for dummies please) and how do you determine if you have a specific sex-linked color of duck?
Sorry for taking over the thread with a different question, I can start a new thread if this question will blow up this thread.

That's such beautiful duck though, @ShovelsCoffee !

You probably should not have opened that can of worms. I am a high school science teacher (Biology and Chemistry) so I love to explain things, probably to a fault. Anyway, a gene is a specific section of DNA that codes for a specific protein. Similar to the way a cookbook has different recipes. Genes are the recipes for different proteins in your DNA. Some genes have more than one version, these are called alleles. For example, one gene in people controls eye color (there are others too). This gene comes in two versions or alleles, there is the brown or dark allele which results in melanin being put in the front of the iris and dark colored eyes or the blue allele which prevents this melanin and results in blue colored eyes. We humans and ducks all have twice as much DNA as we need because we get one set of recipes or genes from our mothers and one set of genes from our fathers. Some people have two brown alleles and therefor brown eyes. Some have two blue alleles and therefor blue eyes. And some have one of each. Since they have the "recipe" for melanin to be put in the iris they have brown eyes. As you probably remember from school, we call an allele dominant if it's trait shows when you have one of each.

Ok, that was probably longer explanation than needed. But if you want to understand duck genetics and which alleles are dominant or recessive in them, Pyxis has written a great article. Here is a link to it:
https://www.backyardchickens.com/articles/mallard-derived-duck-color-genetics-basics.74277/

 

[Corbdee]

You probably should not have opened that can of worms. I am a high school science teacher (Biology and Chemistry) so I love to explain things, probably to a fault. Anyway, a gene is a specific section of DNA that codes for a specific protein. Similar to the way a cookbook has different recipes. Genes are the recipes for different proteins in your DNA. Some genes have more than one version, these are called alleles. For example, one gene in people controls eye color (there are others too). This gene comes in two versions or alleles, there is the brown or dark allele which results in melanin being put in the front of the iris and dark colored eyes or the blue allele which prevents this melanin and results in blue colored eyes. We humans and ducks all have twice as much DNA as we need because we get one set of recipes or genes from our mothers and one set of genes from our fathers. Some people have two brown alleles and therefor brown eyes. Some have two blue alleles and therefor blue eyes. And some have one of each. Since they have the "recipe" for melanin to be put in the iris they have brown eyes. As you probably remember from school, we call an allele dominant if it's trait shows when you have one of each.

Ok, that was probably longer explanation than needed. But if you want to understand duck genetics and which alleles are dominant or recessive in them, Pyxis has written a great article. Here is a link to it:
https://www.backyardchickens.com/articles/mallard-derived-duck-color-genetics-basics.74277/

That was very informative, not at all too long! I'm glad I opened that can...I'll be tiring you out first!

So that's why appearance can depend based on which parent has what allele? Do they carry on by generation? (for example if mom has a blue allele and dad has a brown allele regarding eye color, will child have brown eyes regardless?) And going back to ducks, are there different color alleles for each gene?

My disclaimer is that I have never even come close to researching genetics, even with humans. They intimidate me haha, so apologies if I totally missed the point. Only recently have I started asking around here and there about duck genetics. I'll read the article, too.

 

[cheezenkwackers]

You need to teach me about duck genetics. This is fascinating even though it made zero sense to me . Sex linking makes slight sense to me, and I get the darker colors typically mean males, but I feel like Swedish ducks should be their own bird entirely with how cool they are with breeding .

I'm mostly confused about this,

what is an allele (for dummies please) and how do you determine if you have a specific sex-linked color of duck?
Sorry for taking over the thread with a different question, I can start a new thread if this question will blow up this thread.

That's such beautiful duck though, @ShovelsCoffee !

That was very informative, not at all too long! I'm glad I opened that can...I'll be tiring you out first!

So that's why appearance can depend based on which parent has what allele? Do they carry on by generation? (for example if mom has a blue allele and dad has a brown allele regarding eye color, will child have brown eyes regardless?) And going back to ducks, are there different color alleles for each gene?

My disclaimer is that I have never even come close to researching genetics, even with humans. They intimidate me haha, so apologies if I totally missed the point. Only recently have I started asking around here and there about duck genetics. I'll read the article, too.

We each give our children only one of each allele and it is random which one. So, if mom has blue eyes, she has two blue eyed alleles and can only give each child one. Dad can either have two brown eyed alleles (and only give this) or dad might have a blue and a brown allele. If he has one of each, there is a 50/50 chance which one he gives his child. If the child gets blue from dad and mom = blue eyes. But, if dad gives the child his brown allele, even though mom gave blue, the child will have brown eyes.

As for ducks, all domestic ducks (except Muscovy) are descended from Mallards. Over time, mutations happened resulting in different alleles. People liked them and bred for them. And yes, there are several different genes which have different alleles which control feather color. For example, the genes which causes white like Pekin to be white is really an allele for no color added to the feathers. The other allele codes for normal color like a mallard, or wild type, to be added to the feathers. If a duck has one of each it will get normal color added to their feathers so we say normal is dominant and white is recessive. A white duck then must have two white alleles.

 

[Corbdee]

We each give our children only one of each allele and it is random which one. So, if mom has blue eyes, she has two blue eyed alleles and can only give each child one. Dad can either have two brown eyed alleles (and only give this) or dad might have a blue and a brown allele. If he has one of each, there is a 50/50 chance which one he gives his child. If the child gets blue from dad and mom = blue eyes. But, if dad gives the child his brown allele, even though mom gave blue, the child will have brown eyes.

As for ducks, all domestic ducks (except Muscovy) are descended from Mallards. Over time, mutations happened resulting in different alleles. People liked them and bred for them. And yes, there are several different genes which have different alleles which control feather color. For example, the genes which causes white like Pekin to be white is really an allele for no color added to the feathers. The other allele codes for normal color like a mallard, or wild type, to be added to the feathers. If a duck has one of each it will get normal color added to their feathers so we say normal is dominant and white is recessive. A white duck then must have two white alleles.

I see! So then for each breed color there is an allele code that consists of a certain set of colors, and as time goes on more and more allele codes are created due to different breeding crosses?
Is that what you were describing when you said to make Lavender, you need a blue allele and a sex-linked brown allele?

 

[cheezenkwackers]

I see! So then for each breed color there is an allele code that consists of a certain set of colors, and as time goes on more and more allele codes are created due to different breeding crosses?
Is that what you were describing when you said to make Lavender, you need a blue allele and a sex-linked brown allele?

Yes, they are different genes. But, different alleles can be acquired from different crosses but they all started out as mistakes or mutations when the DNA was copied. People liked those mistakes and purposely bred siblings together to get more. After a long time, your whole flock has a particular set of traits and we say it is a new “kind” of domestic duck.

 

[ShovelsCoffee]

Wish I knew, I got her as an adult (1 yr old). I did hatch a lavender duckling of hers, lavender is one blue allele and sex-linked brown (darker than buff). Her daddy was a Khaki x Appleyard. This is her as a duckling and adult:
View attachment 3521338
View attachment 3521341


Not really except if your male is buff and your female isn’t buff or brown, then your babies are sex-linked. Babies that have buff or brown are females and those that have black undertones are males.
I really do not think your Welsh is the mother. I crossed a Khaki drake and a Welsh hen. These were my babies:
View attachment 3521347
The dark babies are boys, olive ones girls. The harlequin gene is recessive so only getting one copy does not result in light ducklings. The buff gene is sex-linked and incompletely dominant so I also would not expect a duckling as light as yours. So, I still say you have a lilac duckling from your blue female. The brown duck below is one of the Welsh x Khaki girls grown up.
View attachment 3521351

Tha

Wish I knew, I got her as an adult (1 yr old). I did hatch a lavender duckling of hers, lavender is one blue allele and sex-linked brown (darker than buff). Her daddy was a Khaki x Appleyard. This is her as a duckling and adult:
View attachment 3521338
View attachment 3521341


Not really except if your male is buff and your female isn’t buff or brown, then your babies are sex-linked. Babies that have buff or brown are females and those that have black undertones are males.
I really do not think your Welsh is the mother. I crossed a Khaki drake and a Welsh hen. These were my babies:
View attachment 3521347
The dark babies are boys, olive ones girls. The harlequin gene is recessive so only getting one copy does not result in light ducklings. The buff gene is sex-linked and incompletely dominant so I also would not expect a duckling as light as yours. So, I still say you have a lilac duckling from your blue female. The brown duck below is one of the Welsh x Khaki girls grown up.
View attachment 3521351

 

[ShovelsCoffee]

If this helps, Tiny is the tiny one and this is coloring at 7-10 days old. Gosh ducklings grow so fast!!

 

[cheezenkwackers]

So cute! I expected she (or he) was a golden yellow duckling. That would fit with a female lilac/silver (double blue and sex-linked buff female). I am no expert though, I just like to dabble in genetics.

 

[ShovelsCoffee]

Wish I knew, I got her as an adult (1 yr old). I did hatch a lavender duckling of hers, lavender is one blue allele and sex-linked brown (darker than buff). Her daddy was a Khaki x Appleyard. This is her as a duckling and adult:
View attachment 3521338
View attachment 3521341


Not really except if your male is buff and your female isn’t buff or brown, then your babies are sex-linked. Babies that have buff or brown are females and those that have black undertones are males.
I really do not think your Welsh is the mother. I crossed a Khaki drake and a Welsh hen. These were my babies:
View attachment 3521347
The dark babies are boys, olive ones girls. The harlequin gene is recessive so only getting one copy does not result in light ducklings. The buff gene is sex-linked and incompletely dominant so I also would not expect a duckling as light as yours. So, I still say you have a lilac duckling from your blue female. The brown duck below is one of the Welsh x Khaki girls grown up.
View attachment 3521351

Tha

Wish I knew, I got her as an adult (1 yr old). I did hatch a lavender duckling of hers, lavender is one blue allele and sex-linked brown (darker than buff). Her daddy was a Khaki x Appleyard. This is her as a duckling and adult:
View attachment 3521338
View attachment 3521341


Not really except if your male is buff and your female isn’t buff or brown, then your babies are sex-linked. Babies that have buff or brown are females and those that have black undertones are males.
I really do not think your Welsh is the mother. I crossed a Khaki drake and a Welsh hen. These were my babies:
View attachment 3521347
The dark babies are boys, olive ones girls. The harlequin gene is recessive so only getting one copy does not result in light ducklings. The buff gene is sex-linked and incompletely dominant so I also would not expect a duckling as light as yours. So, I still say you have a lilac duckling from your blue female. The brown duck below is one of the Welsh x Khaki girls grown up.
View attachment 3521351

I’m

So cute! I expected she (or he) was a golden yellow duckling. That would fit with a female lilac/silver (double blue and sex-linked buff female). I am no expert though, I just like to dabble in genetics.

So far I’ve been dabbling in human and Muscovy genetics. I think you’re right, it’s just odd to me Tiny makes no sounds.

 

[cheezenkwackers]

How old is Tiny?