Moving Forward- Breeding for Resistance to Marek's Disease

[tridentk9]

As a "pet chicken" owner with a closed flock, vaccination for MDV is probably a good idea. I understand that it won't protect them from the disease.

Since they are pets, my goal is not breeding but to have "healthy, happy chickens". I may not be able to stop them from getting Marek's Disease but maybe I can stop some of the effects of the disease. They may eventually succumb but hopefully without the pain and stress of tumors.

If I was breeding for the long term, my decision may or may not be the same. "Not enough information" as the breed, breeder, location and desired result would need to be factored in also.

 

[seminolewind]

Hi seminolewind,

What I hadn't heard stated quite so directly before I read this is the idea that the vaccinations can be detrimental in the long run - or maybe chooks4life has said it -- but just not in a published article.

"The philosophy here is that vaccinating the entire flock masks the weaker individuals that succumb to the disease weakening your breeding program and the health and strength of your best birds in the process."

Edited by ChicKat - Today at 6:32 am

True. But is slowly exposing them naturally also masking? As for "raise them all together" that's a choice but I've Heard it takes 7-10 generations to get those resistant chicks. I personally get tired of death. Those who don't succumb seem to be prone to wasting or immunosuppression. Not all but quite a few of mine that are unvaccinated.

The public vaccine may not work as well, but ....Nothing. I was going to say it can work well, but then I realize out of 14 I vaccinated, 3 left here. I have 6 left out of 11. They may have died from Marek's or Marek's immunosuppression.

I just wish the vaccine or breeding for resistance included unable to spread the virus.
"
lalaland

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I'ld be interested in hearing what people are doing with their flocks if they have mareks?
- letting them dwindle and no more chickens eventually?
- bringing in chicks and keeping separate for 6 mo
-letting broodies sit and hatch, mixed with flock

whats the game plan?

so far, everyone seems/appears fine. Its been a month since the diagnosis of mareks in one 4 mo old rooster. waiting for the other shoe to drop.


I just want a smaller number of flock. And not have 5 roosters.

 

[seminolewind]

Quote:
The vicinity is already infected if you have it, and will be for quite some time. So there's really no point in processing them. It won't change anything. If you add chicks they have to be vaccinated and quarantined.

 

[seminolewind]

Quote:
People should learn all about Marek's before they think they can teach others.
What really gets me mad is people who say that ******** cured their chicken from Marek's. Then they tell everyone that this cure works. Every time I hear that I want to choke.

 

[Nambroth]

"The philosophy here is that vaccinating the entire flock masks the weaker individuals that succumb to the disease weakening your breeding program and the health and strength of your best birds in the process..." She finishes the paragraph with saying another natural way is to raise a few turkeys with your flock.

Not questioning you ChicKat-- but the author that wrote this.

When we use the HVT vaccine-- that's the one available to Joe Public at the moment and the most common one used by hatcheries also-- we are vaccinating with HVT derived virus to give the chicks' immune system something to think about and with any luck, build a response to the introduced virus, in hopes that it will have a stronger immune response if it is ever later exposed to MDV (I am using very unscientific terms here).
Okay, so what is the difference between vaccinating with HVT, vs. exposing them to HVT via turkey dander, droppings, etc?
Why is one of these considered 'masking weaker birds' and the other not? Given that vaccines are NOT medication, but a form of limited exposure to help the immune system, WHY is this any different than any of the other things we might do to try to build up a 'safe exposure' to our birds?

Statistically speaking, there's far greater risk of viral mutations occurring in even non mixed flocks where combination vaccines are used, and/or strong chemical/artificial treatments, than from species mixing as they naturally do. No species naturally lives in isolation and no matter your security attempts you cannot guarantee them isolation from the greater ecosystem.

Please understand, I am not trying to be argumentative, but can you provide any sources that support this? You do understand that viral mutations are spontaneous and either go on to be a successful mutation (more easily overcomes the immune system-- thus, more virulent) or an unsuccessful one (does not survive the immune system's attack) regardless of method of exposure, but is in direct interaction with immune response?

 

[speckledhen]

People should learn all about Marek's before they think they can teach others.
What really gets me mad is people who say that ******** cured their chicken from Marek's. Then they tell everyone that this cure works. Every time I hear that I want to choke.

Oh, dear, I'm with you on that one! But then, we hear that chickens are "cured" of stuff here all the time that we know cannot happen, so why would Marek's be any different?

 

[seminolewind]

Quote:
ChicKat, I , too, what I said was not directed at you, but at the author.

Nambroth, I do agree with "helping" the public vaccine work better. I do think one should try to vaccinate twice, 3-7 days apart (depending on source), and a longer quarantine. And there is a difference between a vaccine providing a medication and a vaccine providing an immune response.

I think the vaccination method of exposure is better than true exposure. I would want resistance to Marek's virus, not just tumors. I would like to see resistance in those B and T cells that do not allow the virus in whatsoever. No multiplying, No carrying, no exposure. It would be as if the immune system treated Marek's virus like it was knocking at the wrong door, or had the wrong client.

I guess I've just been very disappointed with my vaccinated chickens. I can say that 3 developed paralysis, some of the others died from opportunistic bacteria/cocci that were secondary or not to Marek's. Either way they were immunosuppressed. Meanwhile, my 2 batches of vaccinated hatchery chicks are adults now and doing very very well. And I didn't have any problems with cocci or anything else.

 

[seminolewind]

Quote:
Because I have tunnel vision relating to people who are so desperate , grasping at a "cure", the chicken dies and they are left feeling GUIlty
that they may have made a mistake making the potion.

Please Cynthia, just one group I'd like to choke at a time.

 

[speckledhen]

Because I have tunnel vision relating to people who are so desperate , grasping at a "cure", the chicken dies and they are left feeling GUIlty
that they may have made a mistake making the potion.

Please Cynthia, just one group I'd like to choke at a time.

Sorrrry, lost my head there for a minute!

I understand the desperation to want to do something, anything, to help the bird, but it does no one any good, including the poor chicken, to present false hope and extend suffering.

 

[ChicKat]

Hi y'all,

no I don't think you are after me ;O) -- And I don't think anyone is being argumentative --- and I hope I don't sound that way LOL -- What I think is that everyone here is trying to pile all the possible facts on the table - including anything new, not yet considered, a different viewpoint etc. and hope to sift through it all and get more truth than we had before.


On a different note - regarding exchange between chooks4life and Nambroth There was an instance in Australia BTW - that I heard of long time ago when I first started researching Marek's where somehow in Australia them mixed the USA vaccine and the UK vaccine. You know that there are different strains in each country - and the result was a highly resistant Marek's that responded to neither. I don't have the quote/source at hand, but I did just want to reinforce what chooks4life was considering for us.



ETA - thought if I did a quick google I may find the article - but I didn't. however I did come across this report which I skimmed.
https://www.aecl.org/assets/RD-files/Outputs-2/UNE-83JA-Final-Report.pdf

The commonalities are that it is from Australia and it is about Marek's - There are some photos of tumors/infected organs in the report that could help reference for those who did their own necropsys. It is an interesting read. If I find the article I will come back and post a link. Again, this was some years back so I don't know if I will find it - I think it was a newspaper or magazine article......

Of course I cannot find it - which makes me question my memory-
but this from Poultry hub - does talk about some of the problems that Australia faced yeas ago and some of their approaches.

http://www.poultryhub.org/health/disease/types-of-disease/mareks-disease-virus-or-mdv/