Moving Forward- Breeding for Resistance to Marek's Disease

[seminolewind]

Quote:
Good update. I think we all look forward to updates, good or bad.

 

[alibabba]

Clostridium Perfringens has become a problem in the poultry industry due to not continuously feeding antibiotics . What it can cause is subclinical illness where the chicken has a low chronic infection for months and the chicken just is not very thrifty and doesn't lay well. The destruction is in the small intestine and the nutrients are not able to be taken up as well. Same can happen with cocci. Worm damage will cause the same. All prevent normal uptake of nutrients.

C.P....ringing a human bell....gonna look it up. Not wanting long term antibiotics, but just to assist in killing the bugs and letting the intestines heal. Cocci allows the bacteria that would normally pass on through or be fought to have an opening through the damaged intestinal walls.

I figure with mine, these are pets. they are not for consumption and only for our own eggs, so monitoring what meds are given when and withdrawing is on me. These little guys won't bet laying eggs for a looonggg time.

Experimenting becaus I was treating for cocci many days. all was well, then bright red blood droppings. The good meds, that cover most all bacteria wont be here for another day.

Gave a mash of Exact(mainly for the probiotics), tumeric (for inflammation and clearing toxicity, cleans the blood, raw honey (very antibacterial properties), oxytet water, little milk (didn't have powdered) and their medicated feed. See if things are better or worse in the am.

They are still on oxytet water for a couple days.

 

[alibabba]

I was just going to post an update. Thanks for asking about the chicks.

The broody chicks are doing well, but they are only 4 weeks old so it is a bit early to tell. They've already learned to roost in their chicken tractor. Their mom is very protective over these chicks. I think having her isolated and unable to free range has made her a bit grumpy.

A few weeks ago I noticed the broody chicks are much smaller and slower to develop than the ones that are in the house. I took some pics of one broody chicks with the smallest of my bathroom pullets. The chick on the left is the broody chick at 26 days old, the pullet on the right is 29 days and lives in the house. The indoor chicks are fully feathered and obviously either male or female. The broody chicks are not completely feathered and are still showing no signs of gender characteristics. The broody chicks were living with some pheasant babies that I saw mites on. I suspect the chicks might have mites too, so I just dusted them. I suppose that could be one reason why they are smaller.

Everyone got their second vaccine on Sunday, although I know the broody chicks have probably already been exposed to the virus




With my older pullets, I still have two unvaccinated Australorps that are 7 1/2 months and seem to be resistant. The last of my broody raised pullets that hatched in December died this morning. She was doing so well but clearly wasn't resistant like the two older birds.

so darling, what is the crested one?

 

[seminolewind]

Quote: Clostridium is really bad. It includes Botulism . The CP is the chicken one. Also C. Diff, which is another human nasty that likes the gut. And aside from the bacteria, it produces toxins that are even worse. And Tetanus is a clostridium as well.

I had 3 Polish pullets die overnight. When I picked them up, blood ran out of them. It was awful. My suspicion was Necrotic Enteritis. There were no symptoms at all.

Coccidiosis is caused by a protozoa/parasite. It's called a coccidian protozoa. It's not cocci as in bacteria. Antibiotics won't work on them. Just Corid, Sulfadimethoxine, and someone mentioned Sulmet but I don't know what Sulmet treats.

There's another med called Baycox:
http://www.fanciers.com/cat-facts/c...apies/86-baycox-for-treatment-of-coccidia.pdf

 

[ochochicas]

Does anyone know what happened to the OP of this thread?
@sassybirds

Has their been any luck breeding for resistance? I hatched chicks last year from several different hens. Every one of them has suffered from Marek's except for the two Australorp pullets and one very luck cockerel. Now all my chicks are hatched inside under strict isolation and they will be vaccinated. I've completely given up on hatching chicks with a hen. My broody hen is sitting on pheasant eggs. She loves her babies so I'm hoping to have better luck with pheasants than I did with chicks.

Update on the pheasant eggs...Only 2 hatched. They are NOT at all like chickens and they would not stay with the hen. One of my other pullets killed one of the pheasant babies when it was less than a week old. A few days later the second chick wandered off into the bushes by itself. If would not come out and we looked for it for hours. Later the cat brought it home. It seemed to be unharmed, but it died the next day. No more pheasants for us. Poor babies. I hate it when they don't make it.

 

[alibabba]

Secondary infections-secondary to Marek's immunosuppression, cocci or worm damage, Each one of my necropsies had more than one thing going on. It's like something would cause damage and another microbe would move in and cause more damage.

Sorry not meaning to digress from "breeding for immunity" these chicks are too young to be showing Marek's signs and were supposed to be vaccinated.

I liked the LS-50 and oxytet combo because it covered most bacteria, except Pasteurella (I think, my memory these days...need a constant reference) I'm gonna look over the chart again and see what other combos will be good coverage when you have treated Cocci and the dieing stops, but then discover a fresh completely blood dropping!!! At that point it must be secondary bacteria? or at least should be treated with AB because that intestinal barrier has been breached. And not culling and sending for necropsy, sent one...This is already again eating into the chicken budget. (I need to not count my chickens before they "like grow to 6 weeks into POL...grrr)

Or...the oxytet I started with Corid caused damage? ...hoping to fix with probiotics and the herbs and spices. Little polish looking ill today....after doing awesome for a few days. More AB's...

 

[alibabba]

Is 7 generations or so still the thing to figure on with breeding for immunity? I'm not getting any younger here

Sorry guys from the "Not an Emergency, Marek's in the flock thread", I gave you the heads up that I was gonna come bug these folks for a little!


I have a handful of hens, 7. Unknown vaccination status on anyone. I had lost 3 to Marek's, one confirmed, 2 others that just had to be...I tried everything else under the sun.


Everyone else is fit and well, laying great, chubby. 2 little bantams hatched 9 babies after adding an 11 month old Roo (who is not dead yet) I vaccinated the first 6 (yeah, use the term vaccinate loosely, it was not smooth sailing)

The next 3 I will vaccinate tomorrow. Or should I?

 

[ochochicas]

Are your chicks being raised in the coop or with the flock where the Marek's birds lived? If they are, then vaccinating them probably won't make a difference. If they are housed in a different area and you don't think your hen is a carrier, then you can vaccinate and then keep the chicks isolated from "contaminated" areas for 3 - 6 weeks.

My double-vaccinated broody raised chicks are now orphans. Their mom left them at only 5 weeks and they were not scheduled to be integrated into the flock for at least one more week. Poor little babies are still in the chicken tractor by themselves. They love to free range in the afternoon, but with no one protecting them I worry constantly that a cat or raven will get them. Tonight they were so cute at bed time. They flew up on the table and wanted to roost with me...I'm their new momma!

 

[seminolewind]

Is 7 generations or so still the thing to figure on with breeding for immunity? I'm not getting any younger here

Sorry guys from the "Not an Emergency, Marek's in the flock thread", I gave you the heads up that I was gonna come bug these folks for a little!


I have a handful of hens, 7. Unknown vaccination status on anyone. I had lost 3 to Marek's, one confirmed, 2 others that just had to be...I tried everything else under the sun.


Everyone else is fit and well, laying great, chubby. 2 little bantams hatched 9 babies after adding an 11 month old Roo (who is not dead yet) I vaccinated the first 6 (yeah, use the term vaccinate loosely, it was not smooth sailing)

The next 3 I will vaccinate tomorrow. Or should I?

Yea, takes time to build resistance. A vaccine does it faster. I think you should do everything you can and hope for the best. The 2nd vaccine is okay to do in the thigh. You can put the needle in and an angle so it's right under the skin. Resistance is created by exposure to something and the host's antibodies build. A vaccine does the same thing , exposure than creating antibodies that . There's no other way than to build antibodies.

 

[chooks4life]

Is 7 generations or so still the thing to figure on with breeding for immunity? I'm not getting any younger here

Yes, but it is a rough rule of thumb. It's one I learned as a child, a very old farmer's maxim handed down through many generations, scientifically validated by the studies on breeding for resistance that have been done in recent decades --- 7 generations is about as long as it takes to get from point A to B in a breeding program, going from strength to weakness or from weakness to strength, referring to most things really.

Sorry guys from the "Not an Emergency, Marek's in the flock thread", I gave you the heads up that I was gonna come bug these folks for a little!

The more minds work on this the better I reckon.

I have a handful of hens, 7. Unknown vaccination status on anyone. I had lost 3 to Marek's, one confirmed, 2 others that just had to be...I tried everything else under the sun.

Everyone else is fit and well, laying great, chubby. 2 little bantams hatched 9 babies after adding an 11 month old Roo (who is not dead yet) I vaccinated the first 6 (yeah, use the term vaccinate loosely, it was not smooth sailing)

The next 3 I will vaccinate tomorrow. Or should I?

What are they? If they're purebred anythings, and from a background of vaccinated parent stock, you might be better off vaccinating if you want to keep them alive, if you're willing to take the risk though you would need to leave them unvaccinated to begin to forge your way towards true, genetic-based resistance rather than reliance on a vaccine to protect them.

If you had larger numbers and they weren't pets or valuable financially speaking it'd be better off not to vaccinate, and just jump straight into the deep end, step one of breeding for resistance.

Just a theory... If you could identify the males very young, then leave them unvaccinated since they are less susceptible, and use them over the healthiest vaccinated pullets, repeating that pattern for a few generations to try to develop some resistance without losing as many females as would otherwise occur in altering susceptible lines to resistant lines...

About four generations in, you might be able to leave the females unvaccinated and expect a higher success rate, as in less deaths to Marek's, than if you'd started without vaccinating from scratch...? I don't know if you'd actually save more lives that way, just a thought. I don't know how much relevant resistance they would get from a few generations of having only one unvaccinated parent, but it's got to be more than what they'd get from two vaccinated parents obviously! (Since they get little to no genetic resistance from vaccine-protected parents in most cases).

Best wishes.

@seminolewind: sorry to hear about your Polish.