Moving Forward- Breeding for Resistance to Marek's Disease

[broodyhen2]

Hello I have 4 weeks growers succumbed to the symptoms of MD but they are going for testing soon. They are indoors and my question is will my other indoor pens and outdoor pens all have MD? I have a mix of young birds and adults both in and out
If the MD is confirmed I feel the best option is to breed for resistance but I am not exactly sure how to go about this as I am a relative newbie. The growers were Barred wyandotte bantams and I have 2 strains of adults so these are the birds I would like to breed resistance with.
I have a few other bits and bobs of lf growers and bantam pairs but I don't know what to do with them as I want to sell them but they might have MD although none have shown symptoms, what should I do?
If I am successful with breeding resistance with my barred Wyandotte bantams will the birds of this line still shed MD?
Does this mean I can never buy/sell a bird again?
It's very worrying for me
All advice greatly appreciated thanks
I hope you can understand what I have wrote

 

[chooks4life]

Hello I have 4 weeks growers succumbed to the symptoms of MD but they are going for testing soon. They are indoors and my question is will my other indoor pens and outdoor pens all have MD? I have a mix of young birds and adults both in and out.

Basically, if anything they've been living close to, or on, has been going outside to where the rest are, there's a decent chance cross infection will have occurred. How likely exactly is hard to say. Some chickens don't shed the virus almost at all. Were they vaccinated? Vaccinated chickens were found in some research to shed up to 10 000 times as much virus as non-vaccinated but infected chickens... That reminds me, that's an important piece of info for this thread I think, very pertinent. I will look up the link and add it.

In my opinion the best method depends on what you're working with. Some breeds, and some strains of some breeds, are very weak against it. One vet reckoned Silkies and Sebrights are so weak it's not worth trying with them, but I dare say it's just down to strain, as I've had healthy Silkies among my lot before. I hear some bad things about Wyandottes in general as concerns fertility and general vigor but that may only relate to my country and the often badly inbred strains we have here.

If you read back through this thread people have discussed a few ways to breed for resistance while minimizing losses. It is a bit of a read I guess but it's a bit of a complex subject and there are differing schools of thought on it, and it's beneficial to consider all angles. What's right for one isn't right for all.

If someone is serious about avoiding the disease, they will look for only vaccinated stock, eggs to hatch, or stock from other breeders that meet their standards of biosecurity. They will ask the right questions and turn away at the wrong answers, so if you're honest, you're not going to end up selling to anyone like that.

Those who just don't care about spreading disease even if they do know about it (which is not a priority to them); those who would care if they only knew; and those who, like me, actively seek out diseases their flock hasn't been exposed to, to gain more immunity or resistance, or just don't care if yours have been exposed as long as they're resistant enough or worth working with due to valuable genetics. I'm the sort of person who would happily buy infected stock knowingly, so if you were honest about your stock probably being infected, it wouldn't scare me off at all. In fact I avoid vaccinated stock like the plague. You never know what they're weak against but experience says just about everything. I prefer exposed stock in the case of Marek's disease.

One more thing you could to is sacrifice one to a lab and get some test results to set your mind at ease one way or another, so you know for sure whether or not they're infected. They almost certainly are just because of how incredibly common the disease is. It's really not a biggie under most circumstances.

Of course. Breeding resistance just means they stop dying or getting ill and for all intents and purposes are totally healthy birds. It doesn't stop the fact that they keep shedding the disease.

Not at all. Marek's, in the forms we know it, has been around ever since the domestic chicken was around, more or less. As far as I know, the original wild type of the disease was probably far weaker, we seem to do well at strengthening diseases by figuring out new ways to keep sick animals alive for longer and keeping them in huge crowds and so forth.

There are some more virulent, dangerous strains of Marek's, but neither you nor any of us have those, it's almost a guarantee. They're rare and so virulent they kill themselves and destroy their own capacity to be propagated due to the high mortality rate. Some recent research has suggested the vaccine is enabling these more virulent forms to spread further by delaying or preventing death in susceptible infected chickens, so they can shed even more, it's a valid concern indeed. But not really applicable to our situations.

You can take what measures you feel necessary to mitigate the risk, like telling people your chickens may (or do) carry Marek's. You can still buy and sell like everyone else does, more or less. Some opportunities may close, like selling your mature stock to other breeders who are concerned about biosecurity, but you can still sell them hatching eggs, Marek's isn't transmitted through eggs after all.

It's very worrying for me
All advice greatly appreciated thanks
I hope you can understand what I have wrote

Perfectly understandable. You should not be so worried. Vigilant, yes, and keep records, and watch to ensure you are breeding stronger rather than weaker lines --- but doesn't that apply to any breeder worth their salt? In short you'll just be following mostly the same protocol decent breeders of the past followed, trying to breed for hardiness, fertility, temperament, type, productivity, etc, (as applies to your flock/breed/needs and aims) and disease concerns won't plague you like they do those only breeding for type or productivity at the expense of the other vital traits.
Best wishes.

 

[chooks4life]

Quote: “People suspected the vaccine, but the problem was that it was never shown before experimentally,” said virologist Klaus Osterrieder of the Free University of Berlin, who wasn’t involved in the study. “The field has talked about these types of experiments for a very long time, and I’m really glad to see the work finally done.”

Read’s group started their investigation by exposing vaccinated and unvaccinated Rhode Island Red chickens to one of five Marek’s disease strains that ranged from hot to cold. The hottest strains killed every unvaccinated bird within 10 days, and the team noticed that barely any virus was shed from the feathers of the chickens during that time. (The virus spreads via contaminated dust in chicken coops).

In contrast, vaccination extended the lifespan of birds exposed to the hottest strains, with 80 percent living longer than two months. But the vaccinated chickens were transmitting the virus, shedding 10,000 times more virus than an unvaccinated bird.

“Previously, a hot strain was so nasty, it wiped itself out. Now, you keep its host alive with a vaccine, then it can transmit and spread in the world,” Read said. “So it’s got an evolutionary future, which it didn’t have before.”
They link to the studies in the news article. There's also this, has some interesting info in it.
Quote: Best wishes.

 

[seminolewind]

I guess I see things differently. I feel any good article will talk about the positive and negative. This vaccine is all we have. It saves lives. It was a big step for science to be the first vaccine to stop most cancerous growth, which is so valuable to people. It continues to be worked on and improved. If the usa was losing 2/3 of it's commercial chickens, and now the losses are less than 5% in commercial chickens with the vaccination, that's a miracle. It must be darn hard to plug the leak (continues to allow exposure to spread to others).

No doubt the vaccine has played a part in allowing stronger strains to develop. I erred in thinking the vaccine was created in the 70's. It was the 50's. However, the usa was losing massive amounts with the vaccine during the 70's. Turns out commercial producers looked to the Amish . The Amish practiced all in all out, not mixing ages, disinfecting between batches.

So, is part of the problem leaky vaccine or all of the problem? Are there instances where vaccinated chickens do not spread the virus? Is this leaky theory really a new theory? Or just a new name for something that happens that's been understood for years already?

What research has already been done to reduce transmission?

 

[broodyhen2]

Thank you so much chooks4life. That was very well written and really helpful. You cleared up a lot of the Qs I had so I thank you again for that.
No more birds have shown symptoms or died so just 2 dead in total. I will try to bring in one for testing just to be sure. Vaccinating for Mareks is not common here among breeders, it's mostly done in commercial setups. I believe you are very correct when you say people need more education about the disease.
Thank you again for your help
All the best

 

[brideofchaos]

Chooks and Sassy,

This thread has been infinitely helpful in my current dealings with MD (was confirmed by last a couple weeks ago). I have culled 10-12 birds in the last 6 weeks. Silkies, d'uccles, Yokohamas, one Saipan pullet and a couple EEs. Most POL. All were pures (except Easter Eggers) and from a variety of sources. My question is...you mentioned the use of garlic and rosemary as natural immune boosters. What forms of both (powder, minced/raw, fresh rosemary?) do you use in the feed? I am also going to buy some stall lime as well for the coop and run (most of run is hard dirt and coop is deep/pine litter).

Culled my 2nd silkie the other night and hopefully this is the last one for a while. Still have about 90 chickens to keep healthy. I am reading on breeding for resistance, too and will honestly only sep out a few breeds to breed pure...and for my own pleasure now that I have MD. But the rest will be interbred, as Mother Nature allows and hopefully the next generation will fight it off better.

I do use Purina Flock Raiser feed (though I did feed Dumor earlier on but switched to Purina a couple months ago). My birds also get frequent treats of melon/fruits and meat scraps. But anything I can do to better their nutrition through natural immunity boosters, I'm happy to try.

Thanks much for all the info!
Wendy

 

[lalaland]

Powdered garlic and garlic in a jar are useless for using garlic as an antiviral and immune booster. Fresh chopped and feed immediately as the helpful compound starts to lose potency or dissipate quickly. I also add turmeric weekly. Biggest thing is low stress. Welcome to the thread although I am sorry you have reason to be here.

 

[ochochicas]

I've been feeding my sick birds blackberries. I swear it helps them. Sorry you've had to cull so many birds BoC. I was in your shoes earlier this year. Culling them is never easy. I think I've lost over 2 dozen birds to Marek's, but I haven't added it up since it is so depressing.

 

[brideofchaos]

Powdered garlic and garlic in a jar are useless for using garlic as an antiviral and immune booster. Fresh chopped and feed immediately as the helpful compound starts to lose potency or dissipate quickly. I also add turmeric weekly. Biggest thing is low stress. Welcome to the thread although I am sorry you have reason to be here.

I've heard of the human benefits of turmeric and knew about garlic properties for any creatures for years...HUGE garlic fan here. But am going to give it a shot for the birds as well. I have a garlic press, so it can be freshly crushed...and will get a big container of turmeric today. But the rosemary that someone previously mentioned...not sure I will be able to get that in sufficient volume regularly to treat 100+ birds. But the garlic and turmeric is definitely a start.

Thanks all!

 

[chooks4life]

I guess I see things differently. I feel any good article will talk about the positive and negative. This vaccine is all we have. It saves lives.

Maybe it's all you have, as far as you see it, but that's definitely a personal circumstances kind of thing. Each to their own; it's not all I have and it saves no lives here - because I haven't lost a chicken to MD since I began breeding against susceptibility, and I never vaccinate for it. Whereas those who vaccinate tend to keep losing some. But some people really are stuck between a rock and a hard place, genetically painted into a corner so to speak, they can't stop. A non-leaky vaccine would be many prayers answered, I'm sure. What a terrible situation to be in, especially for rare breed enthusiasts and those who are facing losing their life's work as the vaccine loses relevance and the strains get stronger.

Back in the early 1900s they were already performing successful tests that proved it's easy and effective to breed for resistance to MD; harder to breed a bird that overproduces (meat or eggs) at the expense of its own health and still remains resistant, I am guessing... Whatever their reason, the commercial producers at the time chose not to go ahead with implementing the breeding programs on a wider scale despite the research outcomes. I've read that they chose the (seemingly) easy route, staking their hopes on the vaccine, instead. Sure sounds and looks like it.

It was a big step for science to be the first vaccine to stop most cancerous growth, which is so valuable to people. It continues to be worked on and improved.

Actually a lot of immunologists and vaccine makers ( have the links somewhere but probably actually quicker to google it up lol) are discussing (even publicly) not making any more vaccines because it's only making the disease stronger and stronger.

They have failed to 'improve' the vaccine, as far as I've read; only ever made new vaccines that address variations in strains, which are only getting more virulent; a series of escalating failures basically, each beginning with a bandaid cure that temporarily halts losses only to lead to ending up with a worse situation than they started with.

I guess it all depends how you view it; perspective is everything, but it's looking bad enough from enough angles for the very makers of the vaccines themselves to openly air the same opinions that are being shared in this thread.

If the usa was losing 2/3 of it's commercial chickens, and now the losses are less than 5% in commercial chickens with the vaccination, that's a miracle. It must be darn hard to plug the leak (continues to allow exposure to spread to others).

A lot of factors went into losses, it's not as simple as saying it was just the vaccine that stopped them; MD was as innocuous as ever outside of factory conditions, with extremely low mortality --- so what exactly were they doing to their factory reared chickens to lose such numbers?

Bad breeding was undoubtedly a massive part of it. Bad diet and unethical conditions probably also large parts of it. Some people were knowledgeable about poultry health back then but plenty had no clue and regulations were slack or practically nonexistent; case in point re: cluelessness, epidemics of coccidiosis wiping out large percentages of flocks, being a 'terrible scourge'. That, in my opinion, is primarily a disease of mismanagement, and also partly genetic in basis.

No doubt the vaccine has played a part in allowing stronger strains to develop. I erred in thinking the vaccine was created in the 70's. It was the 50's. However, the usa was losing massive amounts with the vaccine during the 70's. Turns out commercial producers looked to the Amish . The Amish practiced all in all out, not mixing ages, disinfecting between batches.

Which in my opinion is just another error, the all-in/all-out method... Can't breed for resistance that way, you're setting yourself up for failure that can only be delayed as long as you can balance in a precarious position. The more we protect, the weaker they get. Some protection is necessary but nowhere near as much as some flocks are subjected to.

If they did come up with a perfect vaccine/non-leaky vax that eradicated the disease, it would be worth testing, but not adopting large scale until we know what other immunological problems arise in the absence of the extremely low level 'common cold' type threat MD poses to the average chicken, only killing the very most susceptible and not even bothering the average individual.

Removing common, weak challenges to the immune system is now known to send autoimmune disease rates soaring. Some doctors and vets are now saying in the next thirty years we will be experiencing 'catastrophic' rates of autoimmune diseases of all sorts, given the escalating trends we're on right now, with nothing standing in its way, and some vaccines only making it worse. I believe weak diseases that only kill very minor percentages should never be vaccinated against given the fallout that later plays out over future generations due to loss of that challenge. We don't yet know enough about immunology to prevent this from happening; we're removing pebbles that are holding a flood at bay, slowly but surely.

So, is part of the problem leaky vaccine or all of the problem? Are there instances where vaccinated chickens do not spread the virus? Is this leaky theory really a new theory? Or just a new name for something that happens that's been understood for years already?

It was totally unacceptable for scientists to air such concerns about vaccines among most circles, they were shot down for it; history is full of examples made of those who tried. Awareness of the risks of vaccines has been as repressed as any unpopular opposing religious dogma ever was LOL. But the world is becoming more open-minded as the average layperson becomes more educated and scientifically-minded, and now it's becoming okay --- inevitable, even --- to address problems science has known about for decades. Progress, finally.

What research has already been done to reduce transmission?

Nothing much I've read of... But in saying that I do recall some articles I read, which I have bookmarked somewhere, discussing ways to try to prevent proliferation in the follicles, but I don't think they were referring to using a vaccine for it, more theoretical potential treatments, some of them quite toxic. The usual all in/all out, mainly, is of course still what people are relying on.

Chooks and Sassy,

This thread has been infinitely helpful in my current dealings with MD (was confirmed by last a couple weeks ago). I have culled 10-12 birds in the last 6 weeks. Silkies, d'uccles, Yokohamas, one Saipan pullet and a couple EEs. Most POL. All were pures (except Easter Eggers) and from a variety of sources. My question is...you mentioned the use of garlic and rosemary as natural immune boosters. What forms of both (powder, minced/raw, fresh rosemary?) do you use in the feed? I am also going to buy some stall lime as well for the coop and run (most of run is hard dirt and coop is deep/pine litter).

Fresh and raw is almost always better. Certainly that's the case with garlic. Some herbs do get more potent once dried. I find most rosemary that is sold is poor quality. Kiln drying is done and other artificial drying methods on a lot of grains, hays, herbs etc, which harms the active properties quite a lot; essential oils are very damaged by this and can be completely lost.

Best to grow your own if you can really. I use dried rosemary in the feed, it's also good to put a sprig in the water bowls; for garlic I mince or crush it freshly then add to the feed.

Whatever lime you use, make sure the ingredients only list calcium carbonate, and the finer grade the better (granules don't break down so quick)... The right lime is listed under a crazy array of names, some of which are also used for harmful limes.

Culled my 2nd silkie the other night and hopefully this is the last one for a while. Still have about 90 chickens to keep healthy. I am reading on breeding for resistance, too and will honestly only sep out a few breeds to breed pure...and for my own pleasure now that I have MD. But the rest will be interbred, as Mother Nature allows and hopefully the next generation will fight it off better.

Good luck! One Silkie owner I knew lost a whole flock that had produced show winners, brought in some new Silkie chicks and down they all went, some quicker, some slower. It was horrible, you'd have to have no empathy to not feel for someone going through that. Some vets and avian immunologists have written that Silkies appear to have no genetic resistance in them but I don't believe that, I think they did not test enough family lines before asserting that. I've had Silkies that certainly were not susceptible and I've known plenty of people with strong lines too.

I do use Purina Flock Raiser feed (though I did feed Dumor earlier on but switched to Purina a couple months ago). My birds also get frequent treats of melon/fruits and meat scraps. But anything I can do to better their nutrition through natural immunity boosters, I'm happy to try.

Oregano, clove, rosemary, garlic, and turmeric are all great herbs for immune boosting or modulating traits, adding some of those on a regular basis will help. It always helped mine.

Some recent research on garlic shows one of its main effects against parasites is to modulate the immune response to them; they produce immunomodulating chemicals that enable them to survive within the host without the immune system attacking them, and garlic among some others can re-wire the immune system (so to speak) to recognize the parasites again.

I've been reading up even more on natural alternatives lately and there's no shortage of amazingly powerful plants being verified by scientific methods. I think in the next few decades, using herbs will again become the normal thing to do, at the rate it's going.

Thanks much for all the info!
Wendy

You're welcome. Best wishes.

Thank you so much chooks4life. That was very well written and really helpful. You cleared up a lot of the Qs I had so I thank you again for that.
No more birds have shown symptoms or died so just 2 dead in total. I will try to bring in one for testing just to be sure. Vaccinating for Mareks is not common here among breeders, it's mostly done in commercial setups. I believe you are very correct when you say people need more education about the disease.
Thank you again for your help
All the best
You're welcome, hope things work out for you.
Best wishes.