Need advice from those more experienced

[aoxa]

What is it about the fermented feed that makes them healthier? Just wondering, this is the first I have ever hear about fermented feed.

Here are some:

 

[Barrdwing]

The fermented feed smells a bit yeasty and a bit fruity. When it's 24 hours old it smells rather nice. After 24 hours, it starts getting a little feisty as the culture gets stronger, but it never smells rancid, foul, or spoiled. With care you can nurse it along for several days without it going bad on you.

I had a little trouble figuring out how to balance the fermentation process at first. Basically you take two plastic (NOT metal) buckets, or a bucket and a big plastic ice cream tub (a big old Schwann's Vanilla tub is what we're using). You want the tub or bucket to fit down inside the other bucket. Drill a bunch of small holes in the bottom of the ice cream tub (or you can punch them in with a nail). You are creating a flow-through for the fermentation liquid to access your feed, and also a sort of strainer.

Fill the inner bucket or tub about 1/3 full with your layer feed. Add water until the tub is nearly full, and let some also go out into the outer bucket. Next, take a bottle of Bragg's apple cider vinegar ("With the Mother"). You must use vinegar with the mother in it: it's the live culture that will ferment the feed. Be sure to mix up the bottle first! You want all that cloudy stuff at the bottom to be mixed into the vinegar. Pour 1 to 2 tablespoons of vinegar into the mush (it's fine to just eyeball it--nothing precise here). Stir the whole mess up with a long-handled wooden spoon. Cover it with a paper towel or cheesecloth, and set it indoors in a dimly-lit room.

The initial culture takes 24-48 hours to get rolling. If you forget to mix up the vinegar bottle first, like I did on my first batch, it takes nearly a week because you didn't put in enough of the "mother". Once it gets going, the mix gets bubbly and spongelike and tries to climb right out of the inner tub. Stir it down once or twice a day.

When feeding it, I scoop it out and put it in another bucket, leaving one to two inches of slush at the bottom of the fermenting tub. Leave the liquid in the outer bucket alone: this plus the slush left in the tub will act as the "starter" for your next batch. This technique is called backslopping, and if you do it this way you'll rarely have to add any more vinegar. You just put in more dry feed and water, stir, cover, and let it go to work. I only add more vinegar if the ferment appears slower than normal.

If you find that the stuff you've dished out to feed is really sloppy/too wet, you can stir some dry feed into the mix in your feeding bucket and let it sit for five minutes. The dry crumble will soak up the extra liquid nicely. You'll want to feed this in a shallow plastic or rubber pan, or better yet a long plastic trough. Folks have used PVC pipe, plastic rain gutters, plates, and all kinds of things. Don't put it in a metal container, because there's a risk that the vinegar might react with the metal and release toxins; it will certainly etch and damage the metal over time.

Remember that you're working with a culture, so it's important to be careful about what goes in. If I've got dirty hands, eating, or have just been petting the dog, I wash up before working with the fermented feed. I avoid sneezing or coughing into the feed. I use wooden or plastic utensils, and rinse them off really well after using them. I don't know how essential these precautions really are, but I do know that I don't want to end up culturing something weird or nasty by accident. Likewise, if the mix started to smell nasty, I'd dump it all out and start over. But I haven't had to do that yet, and I've been working with this same batch for a couple of months now.

Have fun!

 

[Kuntry Klucker]

Wow!! Thanks, that is great information. I can see why a lot of people use the fermented feed. The benifits are great!

 

[Kuntry Klucker]

The fermented feed smells a bit yeasty and a bit fruity. When it's 24 hours old it smells rather nice. After 24 hours, it starts getting a little feisty as the culture gets stronger, but it never smells rancid, foul, or spoiled. With care you can nurse it along for several days without it going bad on you.

I had a little trouble figuring out how to balance the fermentation process at first. Basically you take two plastic (NOT metal) buckets, or a bucket and a big plastic ice cream tub (a big old Schwann's Vanilla tub is what we're using). You want the tub or bucket to fit down inside the other bucket. Drill a bunch of small holes in the bottom of the ice cream tub (or you can punch them in with a nail). You are creating a flow-through for the fermentation liquid to access your feed, and also a sort of strainer.

Fill the inner bucket or tub about 1/3 full with your layer feed. Add water until the tub is nearly full, and let some also go out into the outer bucket. Next, take a bottle of Bragg's apple cider vinegar ("With the Mother"). You must use vinegar with the mother in it: it's the live culture that will ferment the feed. Be sure to mix up the bottle first! You want all that cloudy stuff at the bottom to be mixed into the vinegar. Pour 1 to 2 tablespoons of vinegar into the mush (it's fine to just eyeball it--nothing precise here). Stir the whole mess up with a long-handled wooden spoon. Cover it with a paper towel or cheesecloth, and set it indoors in a dimly-lit room.

The initial culture takes 24-48 hours to get rolling. If you forget to mix up the vinegar bottle first, like I did on my first batch, it takes nearly a week because you didn't put in enough of the "mother". Once it gets going, the mix gets bubbly and spongelike and tries to climb right out of the inner tub. Stir it down once or twice a day.

When feeding it, I scoop it out and put it in another bucket, leaving one to two inches of slush at the bottom of the fermenting tub. Leave the liquid in the outer bucket alone: this plus the slush left in the tub will act as the "starter" for your next batch. This technique is called backslopping, and if you do it this way you'll rarely have to add any more vinegar. You just put in more dry feed and water, stir, cover, and let it go to work. I only add more vinegar if the ferment appears slower than normal.

If you find that the stuff you've dished out to feed is really sloppy/too wet, you can stir some dry feed into the mix in your feeding bucket and let it sit for five minutes. The dry crumble will soak up the extra liquid nicely. You'll want to feed this in a shallow plastic or rubber pan, or better yet a long plastic trough. Folks have used PVC pipe, plastic rain gutters, plates, and all kinds of things. Don't put it in a metal container, because there's a risk that the vinegar might react with the metal and release toxins; it will certainly etch and damage the metal over time.

Remember that you're working with a culture, so it's important to be careful about what goes in. If I've got dirty hands, eating, or have just been petting the dog, I wash up before working with the fermented feed. I avoid sneezing or coughing into the feed. I use wooden or plastic utensils, and rinse them off really well after using them. I don't know how essential these precautions really are, but I do know that I don't want to end up culturing something weird or nasty by accident. Likewise, if the mix started to smell nasty, I'd dump it all out and start over. But I haven't had to do that yet, and I've been working with this same batch for a couple of months now.

Have fun!

Thank you so much for the valuable information!! I am going to have to try this. If I screw it up the first try will it make the birds sick? Or will they just not eat it?
I am sure that after a few tries I will get the hang of it just don't want to do anything wrong and cause harm to my flock.

thanks

The fermented feed smells a bit yeasty and a bit fruity. When it's 24 hours old it smells rather nice. After 24 hours, it starts getting a little feisty as the culture gets stronger, but it never smells rancid, foul, or spoiled. With care you can nurse it along for several days without it going bad on you.

I had a little trouble figuring out how to balance the fermentation process at first. Basically you take two plastic (NOT metal) buckets, or a bucket and a big plastic ice cream tub (a big old Schwann's Vanilla tub is what we're using). You want the tub or bucket to fit down inside the other bucket. Drill a bunch of small holes in the bottom of the ice cream tub (or you can punch them in with a nail). You are creating a flow-through for the fermentation liquid to access your feed, and also a sort of strainer.

Fill the inner bucket or tub about 1/3 full with your layer feed. Add water until the tub is nearly full, and let some also go out into the outer bucket. Next, take a bottle of Bragg's apple cider vinegar ("With the Mother"). You must use vinegar with the mother in it: it's the live culture that will ferment the feed. Be sure to mix up the bottle first! You want all that cloudy stuff at the bottom to be mixed into the vinegar. Pour 1 to 2 tablespoons of vinegar into the mush (it's fine to just eyeball it--nothing precise here). Stir the whole mess up with a long-handled wooden spoon. Cover it with a paper towel or cheesecloth, and set it indoors in a dimly-lit room.

The initial culture takes 24-48 hours to get rolling. If you forget to mix up the vinegar bottle first, like I did on my first batch, it takes nearly a week because you didn't put in enough of the "mother". Once it gets going, the mix gets bubbly and spongelike and tries to climb right out of the inner tub. Stir it down once or twice a day.

When feeding it, I scoop it out and put it in another bucket, leaving one to two inches of slush at the bottom of the fermenting tub. Leave the liquid in the outer bucket alone: this plus the slush left in the tub will act as the "starter" for your next batch. This technique is called backslopping, and if you do it this way you'll rarely have to add any more vinegar. You just put in more dry feed and water, stir, cover, and let it go to work. I only add more vinegar if the ferment appears slower than normal.

If you find that the stuff you've dished out to feed is really sloppy/too wet, you can stir some dry feed into the mix in your feeding bucket and let it sit for five minutes. The dry crumble will soak up the extra liquid nicely. You'll want to feed this in a shallow plastic or rubber pan, or better yet a long plastic trough. Folks have used PVC pipe, plastic rain gutters, plates, and all kinds of things. Don't put it in a metal container, because there's a risk that the vinegar might react with the metal and release toxins; it will certainly etch and damage the metal over time.

Remember that you're working with a culture, so it's important to be careful about what goes in. If I've got dirty hands, eating, or have just been petting the dog, I wash up before working with the fermented feed. I avoid sneezing or coughing into the feed. I use wooden or plastic utensils, and rinse them off really well after using them. I don't know how essential these precautions really are, but I do know that I don't want to end up culturing something weird or nasty by accident. Likewise, if the mix started to smell nasty, I'd dump it all out and start over. But I haven't had to do that yet, and I've been working with this same batch for a couple of months now.

Have fun!

The fermented feed smells a bit yeasty and a bit fruity. When it's 24 hours old it smells rather nice. After 24 hours, it starts getting a little feisty as the culture gets stronger, but it never smells rancid, foul, or spoiled. With care you can nurse it along for several days without it going bad on you.

I had a little trouble figuring out how to balance the fermentation process at first. Basically you take two plastic (NOT metal) buckets, or a bucket and a big plastic ice cream tub (a big old Schwann's Vanilla tub is what we're using). You want the tub or bucket to fit down inside the other bucket. Drill a bunch of small holes in the bottom of the ice cream tub (or you can punch them in with a nail). You are creating a flow-through for the fermentation liquid to access your feed, and also a sort of strainer.

Fill the inner bucket or tub about 1/3 full with your layer feed. Add water until the tub is nearly full, and let some also go out into the outer bucket. Next, take a bottle of Bragg's apple cider vinegar ("With the Mother"). You must use vinegar with the mother in it: it's the live culture that will ferment the feed. Be sure to mix up the bottle first! You want all that cloudy stuff at the bottom to be mixed into the vinegar. Pour 1 to 2 tablespoons of vinegar into the mush (it's fine to just eyeball it--nothing precise here). Stir the whole mess up with a long-handled wooden spoon. Cover it with a paper towel or cheesecloth, and set it indoors in a dimly-lit room.

The initial culture takes 24-48 hours to get rolling. If you forget to mix up the vinegar bottle first, like I did on my first batch, it takes nearly a week because you didn't put in enough of the "mother". Once it gets going, the mix gets bubbly and spongelike and tries to climb right out of the inner tub. Stir it down once or twice a day.

When feeding it, I scoop it out and put it in another bucket, leaving one to two inches of slush at the bottom of the fermenting tub. Leave the liquid in the outer bucket alone: this plus the slush left in the tub will act as the "starter" for your next batch. This technique is called backslopping, and if you do it this way you'll rarely have to add any more vinegar. You just put in more dry feed and water, stir, cover, and let it go to work. I only add more vinegar if the ferment appears slower than normal.

If you find that the stuff you've dished out to feed is really sloppy/too wet, you can stir some dry feed into the mix in your feeding bucket and let it sit for five minutes. The dry crumble will soak up the extra liquid nicely. You'll want to feed this in a shallow plastic or rubber pan, or better yet a long plastic trough. Folks have used PVC pipe, plastic rain gutters, plates, and all kinds of things. Don't put it in a metal container, because there's a risk that the vinegar might react with the metal and release toxins; it will certainly etch and damage the metal over time.

Remember that you're working with a culture, so it's important to be careful about what goes in. If I've got dirty hands, eating, or have just been petting the dog, I wash up before working with the fermented feed. I avoid sneezing or coughing into the feed. I use wooden or plastic utensils, and rinse them off really well after using them. I don't know how essential these precautions really are, but I do know that I don't want to end up culturing something weird or nasty by accident. Likewise, if the mix started to smell nasty, I'd dump it all out and start over. But I haven't had to do that yet, and I've been working with this same batch for a couple of months now.

Have fun!

The fermented feed smells a bit yeasty and a bit fruity. When it's 24 hours old it smells rather nice. After 24 hours, it starts getting a little feisty as the culture gets stronger, but it never smells rancid, foul, or spoiled. With care you can nurse it along for several days without it going bad on you.

I had a little trouble figuring out how to balance the fermentation process at first. Basically you take two plastic (NOT metal) buckets, or a bucket and a big plastic ice cream tub (a big old Schwann's Vanilla tub is what we're using). You want the tub or bucket to fit down inside the other bucket. Drill a bunch of small holes in the bottom of the ice cream tub (or you can punch them in with a nail). You are creating a flow-through for the fermentation liquid to access your feed, and also a sort of strainer.

Fill the inner bucket or tub about 1/3 full with your layer feed. Add water until the tub is nearly full, and let some also go out into the outer bucket. Next, take a bottle of Bragg's apple cider vinegar ("With the Mother"). You must use vinegar with the mother in it: it's the live culture that will ferment the feed. Be sure to mix up the bottle first! You want all that cloudy stuff at the bottom to be mixed into the vinegar. Pour 1 to 2 tablespoons of vinegar into the mush (it's fine to just eyeball it--nothing precise here). Stir the whole mess up with a long-handled wooden spoon. Cover it with a paper towel or cheesecloth, and set it indoors in a dimly-lit room.

The initial culture takes 24-48 hours to get rolling. If you forget to mix up the vinegar bottle first, like I did on my first batch, it takes nearly a week because you didn't put in enough of the "mother". Once it gets going, the mix gets bubbly and spongelike and tries to climb right out of the inner tub. Stir it down once or twice a day.

When feeding it, I scoop it out and put it in another bucket, leaving one to two inches of slush at the bottom of the fermenting tub. Leave the liquid in the outer bucket alone: this plus the slush left in the tub will act as the "starter" for your next batch. This technique is called backslopping, and if you do it this way you'll rarely have to add any more vinegar. You just put in more dry feed and water, stir, cover, and let it go to work. I only add more vinegar if the ferment appears slower than normal.

If you find that the stuff you've dished out to feed is really sloppy/too wet, you can stir some dry feed into the mix in your feeding bucket and let it sit for five minutes. The dry crumble will soak up the extra liquid nicely. You'll want to feed this in a shallow plastic or rubber pan, or better yet a long plastic trough. Folks have used PVC pipe, plastic rain gutters, plates, and all kinds of things. Don't put it in a metal container, because there's a risk that the vinegar might react with the metal and release toxins; it will certainly etch and damage the metal over time.

Remember that you're working with a culture, so it's important to be careful about what goes in. If I've got dirty hands, eating, or have just been petting the dog, I wash up before working with the fermented feed. I avoid sneezing or coughing into the feed. I use wooden or plastic utensils, and rinse them off really well after using them. I don't know how essential these precautions really are, but I do know that I don't want to end up culturing something weird or nasty by accident. Likewise, if the mix started to smell nasty, I'd dump it all out and start over. But I haven't had to do that yet, and I've been working with this same batch for a couple of months now.

Have fun!

 

[Barrdwing]

If the culture were something other than the active species in the apple cider vinegar, it could potentially cause harm, yes. However, there are several factors that work against culturing the wrong bugs:
1. The apple cider vinegar mother is fast-multiplying and creates an acid environment. This makes it a stronger competitor than many bacterial species. It tends to steamroller right over the top of them.
2. Stirring the fermenting feed twice daily introduces air (oxygen), making the mush more hostile to the growth of oxygen-hating bacteria (many oxygen-haters are harmful).
3. Taking care to avoid accidentally introducing other bacteria is important, e.g. washing hands before touching the mush, keeping spoons and scoops clean, keeping the mush covered while allowing air flow. Never seal the container, or you'll kill the ferment and cause growth of oxygen-hating bacteria--that would be disastrous.
4. Use your nose. You will quickly learn what normal ferment smells like (I actually tasted the stuff several times starting out; never double-dip, because human mouth bacteria are not desirable). Any deviation from normal is cause for dumping the lot and starting over.

If you read through that long thread on fermenting feed, you'll see people comment on how it smells. Some people have said it smells a little like poo to them. I noted a nose-wrinkling edge to the odor early on, but it didn't really smell like poo and when I tasted the stuff it did not taste foul. (It must be an acquired taste for humans, however.

) Over the next couple of weeks the smell became just tangy/fruity, progressing to sour if the batch sat for more than a day.

One poster said that she thought the fermented feed caused sour crop in one of her hens. I have not had this happen yet, and I'm feeding over fifty birds. Of course, I'm also only feeding it twice a week. Also, most of my birds free-range, and they get less fermented feed than the cooped birds. The cooped birds get the majority of it; in fact, I started fermenting for their sakes. Until I'm able to build them a grazing pen, I'm rather depending on the fermented feed to get them more protein and nutrients. I do think it's helped their feather quality, and I've noticed less tendency to pick. (I should mention that their "coop" is a one-and-a-half stall barn, so they do have space!)

 

[Kuntry Klucker]

If the culture were something other than the active species in the apple cider vinegar, it could potentially cause harm, yes. However, there are several factors that work against culturing the wrong bugs:
1. The apple cider vinegar mother is fast-multiplying and creates an acid environment. This makes it a stronger competitor than many bacterial species. It tends to steamroller right over the top of them.
2. Stirring the fermenting feed twice daily introduces air (oxygen), making the mush more hostile to the growth of oxygen-hating bacteria (many oxygen-haters are harmful).
3. Taking care to avoid accidentally introducing other bacteria is important, e.g. washing hands before touching the mush, keeping spoons and scoops clean, keeping the mush covered while allowing air flow. Never seal the container, or you'll kill the ferment and cause growth of oxygen-hating bacteria--that would be disastrous.
4. Use your nose. You will quickly learn what normal ferment smells like (I actually tasted the stuff several times starting out; never double-dip, because human mouth bacteria are not desirable). Any deviation from normal is cause for dumping the lot and starting over.

If you read through that long thread on fermenting feed, you'll see people comment on how it smells. Some people have said it smells a little like poo to them. I noted a nose-wrinkling edge to the odor early on, but it didn't really smell like poo and when I tasted the stuff it did not taste foul. (It must be an acquired taste for humans, however.

) Over the next couple of weeks the smell became just tangy/fruity, progressing to sour if the batch sat for more than a day.

One poster said that she thought the fermented feed caused sour crop in one of her hens. I have not had this happen yet, and I'm feeding over fifty birds. Of course, I'm also only feeding it twice a week. Also, most of my birds free-range, and they get less fermented feed than the cooped birds. The cooped birds get the majority of it; in fact, I started fermenting for their sakes. Until I'm able to build them a grazing pen, I'm rather depending on the fermented feed to get them more protein and nutrients. I do think it's helped their feather quality, and I've noticed less tendency to pick. (I should mention that their "coop" is a one-and-a-half stall barn, so they do have space!)

Thank you so much for the valuable info!!! I want to star fermenting, how much do you ferment at a time? do you do the whole bag of feed or just
what you are going to use in a week or month or so? Just wondering. Does any one have any pics of their fermenting method. I just want some ideas of
what is best.

Thanks

 

[sjshaw1980]

I would try a couple of weeks worth of vitamin/mineral supplement, as well as increase their scratch feed to help them gain a little weight back. Unless you notice sneezing, coughing, runny eyes, diarrhea, lethargy and a generally droopy, sleepy appearance when they would otherwise be active and playing, I would not medicate with antibiotics yet.

 

[Kuntry Klucker]

I would try a couple of weeks worth of vitamin/mineral supplement, as well as increase their scratch feed to help them gain a little weight back. Unless you notice sneezing, coughing, runny eyes, diarrhea, lethargy and a generally droopy, sleepy appearance when they would otherwise be active and playing, I would not medicate with antibiotics yet.

Ok, that is what I will do. Hopefully they will not need any meds at all. Thanks

 

[sjshaw1980]

Good luck!!! Keep us posted!

 

[Barrdwing]

Thank you so much for the valuable info!!! I want to star fermenting, how much do you ferment at a time? do you do the whole bag of feed or just
what you are going to use in a week or month or so? Just wondering. Does any one have any pics of their fermenting method. I just want some ideas of
what is best.

Thanks

How much you ferment will depend on how many birds you're feeding, how much of their diet you want to be fermented feed, and the size of your fermenting tub or bucket. Some of the hard-core fermented feed people use a small plastic trash can to do the fermenting. For my lot, I use a small plastic bucket with a plastic ice cream tub that fits down inside it with about an inch to spare on the sides. In this container, I ferment three or four double-handfuls of layer crumble at a go. This volume of dry fills the container to about 1/3-1/2 full. Then I add a lot of water. The crumble swells up like crazy as it absorbs the water. I stir it up, then put in the apple cider vinegar (again, make sure it's live culture vinegar, with the "mother") and stir again before setting it aside to ferment.

If I were feeding the fermented stuff exclusively, I would definitely go to a bigger container. However, I figure I will stick with the small batches for now. I prefer to ferment only as much as I'm going to feed in a day. I'm still experimenting with how many days a culture can be "stretched" before it starts to get funky. There haven't been spoilage problems yet, but come summer and warm weather I bet there will be more risk.

The fermented feed thread probably has some photos of setup. If not, there are other threads on BYC that discuss it, but the one I can think of off the top of my head is hundreds of pages long, and I can't recall where the photos are in it.