Preventative Treatments - Cocci Vaccine vs Amprolium

[Forestfarm]

Hi All,

I raised a flock of 35 cornish cross a couple years ago. It was successful for my first time around, but I did have issues with what I suspect was cocci. I ended up using Corid in their water to get the situation under control, but not before we lost 4 or 5 birds. I'm still pretty stumped on what led to cocci - their brooder was huge and I kept it pretty clean and dry. We live in a very wet climate but the issues started while they were in the brooder.

This spring I'll be raising 60 meat birds - 30 cornish cross and 30 freedom rangers (just to be able to do a side by side comparison on feed costs and overall enjoyment of working with each breed). They will be brooded and tractored in separate enclosures. Having already dealt with cocci in the past, I'd like to take preventative measures rather than treat an outbreak. It seems like the three options are medicated starter feed, the cocci vaccine given at the hatchery, or a preventative dose of corid/amprolium in their drinking water (for 5 weeks from what I've read). The hatchery I ordered chicks from is adamant that their cornish cross are given feed with no less than 21% protein from day one. They reiterated this when I called with other questions regarding the breed. So based on that I will be feeding them meat bird feed from day 1, (likely Nutena NatureWise, since other meat bird feeds are hard to come by or prohibitively expensive to ship to our rural area).

So having hashed all of that out, my two options are: have birds vaccinated for cocci at the hatchery, or give them a preventative dosage of Corid in their water from the get-go. I had decided to go with the vaccine simply because it seemed more streamlined. We have lots going on in the mornings and not having to measure out Corid in the waterers everyday seemed like reasonable choice. As I wade deeper and deeper into all of the info online, I'm not sure if I made the right choice. Nothing I've read said that the vaccine is bad, but just not a very common choice for a small 60 bird operation where the birds are clean and well cared for. Now I'm debating on calling the hatchery and cancelling the vaccine - I've already called twice - once to change hatch dates and second to add the vaccine - I'm sure there's a red flag by my name at this point LOL.

TL;DR is Corid/amprolium in waterers the preferable preventative measure over the cocci vaccine. If so, why?

Thanks for reading if you got through all of that! FWIW I believe I've read through every post on cocci and did not see this particular question posted.

 

[Wyorp Rock]

Welcome To BYC

Coccidia is found in the poop and soil, chicks will be exposed to it even in the brooder. Often brooder raised chicks have issues with Coccidiosis.

Some do use the vaccine, that's up to you to do the research to see if it's right for you. For me, I would not, I prefer the chicks to have natural exposure through poop and soil, giving Corid as necessary.

Incubation period is around 5 days so I would start them on a round of Corid at around 5 days old since you have had problems in the past.
If in a brooder, keep poop scooped and bedding dry. Water stations cleaned and free of poop as much as possible.



Not sure where you are getting giving them Corid for 5 weeks? That's a long time. Perhaps you are looking at dosing/timelines for Cattle.

Liquid Corid dose is 2tsp or Powdered Corid Dose is 1 1/2tsp per gallon of water given for 5-7 days as the only source of drinking water.
Do not add any extra vitamins/electrolytes that contain B1(Thiamine) to food or water during the course of treatment.

 

[Forestfarm]

Thanks for the info and insight! And thanks for also questioning the '5 week' corid application. I was trying to figure out where I got that number and I must have mixed up some of the info I had on the vaccine. Regarding the cocci vaccine, the hatchery says, "Please note: this vaccine is effective at preventing the spread of Coccidiosis for the first 5 weeks of a chick's life." That must be where I got that. But after looking further into the preventative dosage, Meyer hatchery says to give Corid for 21 days, which is still quite a while.

With starting Corid on day 5, why would it be preferable to start it after the incubation period rather than from the first day?

 

[Wyorp Rock]

I would not start them on Corid at day one. It takes oocysts 5+days to sporulate. The chicks still need to be exposed to what's in their environment. Giving the first 5 days, you're going to end up having to treat repeatedly if not careful.

The dosing I gave you is the full dose, this should reduce Coccidia numbers if there's a problem.

Meyer Hatchery says 21 days if giving "preventative" dosing. I've seen folks giving preventative dosing and they still have problem. Either treat or don't.

 

[Forestfarm]

I would not start them on Corid at day one. It takes oocysts 5+days to sporulate. The chicks still need to be exposed to what's in their environment. Giving the first 5 days, you're going to end up having to treat repeatedly if not careful.

The dosing I gave you is the full dose, this should reduce Coccidia numbers if there's a problem.

Meyer Hatchery says 21 days if giving "preventative" dosing. I've seen folks giving preventative dosing and they still have problem. Either treat or don't.

Thank you for this! Really good points. Much appreciated. I can see how the "preventative" dosing could cause issues.

 

[Ridgerunner]

I'll copy something I wrote a few years back answering a different question but you may get some use out of it. It was not written about meat birds specifically, more general than that. With the way CX poop can build up they are more likely to have problems with Cocci than other chicks.


First you need to know what the "medicated" is in the medicated feed. It should be on the label. Usually it is Amprolium, Amprol, some such product, but until you read the label, you really don't know. Most "medicated' feed from major brands for chicks that will be layers uses Amprolium, but there are a few out there mostly for broilers, that use other medicines. I'll assume yours is an Amprolium product, but if it is not, then realize everything I say about it may not apply. And it is possible that the "medicated" is Amprolium AND something else.

Amprolium is not an antibiotic. It does not kill anything. It inhibits the protozoa that cause coccidiosis (often called Cocci on this forum) from multiplying in the chicken's system. It does not prevent the protozoa from multiplying; it just slows that multiplication down. There are several different strains of protozoa that can cause Cocci, some more severe than others. Chickens can develop immunity to a specific strain of the protozoa, but that does not give them immunity to all protozoa that cause Cocci.

It is not a big deal for the chicken’s intestines to contain some of the protozoa that cause Cocci. The problem comes in when the number of those protozoa gets huge. The protozoa can multiply in the chicken’s intestines but also in wet manure. For them to reproduce they need some moisture. Slightly damp isn't an issue, soaking wet is. Different protozoa strains have different strengths, but for almost all cases, if you keep the brooder dry, you will not have a problem.

To develop immunity to a specific strain, that protozoa needs to be in the chicks intestines for two or three weeks. The normal sequence is that a chick has the protozoa. It poops and some of the cysts that develop the protozoa come out in the poop. If the poop is slightly damp, those cysts develop and will then develop in the chick's intestines when the chicks eat that poop. This cycle needs go on for a few weeks so all chicks are exposed and they are exposed long enough to develop immunity. A couple of important points here. You do need to watch them to see if they are getting sick. And the key is to keep the brooder dry yet allow some of the poop to stay damp. Not soaking wet, just barely damp. Wet poop can lead to serious problems.

What sometimes happens is that people keep chicks in a brooder and feed them medicated feed while they are in the brooder. Those chicks are never exposed to the Cocci protozoa that lives in the dirt in their run, so they never develop the immunity to it. Then, they are switched to non-medicated feed and put on the ground where they are for the first time exposed to the protozoa. They do not have immunity, they do not have the protection of the medicated feed, so they get sick. Feeding medicated feed while in the brooder was a complete waste.

I do not feed medicated feed. I keep the brooder dry to not allow the protozoa to breed uncontrollably. The third day that they are in the brooder, I take a scoop of dirt from the run and feed it to them so I can introduce the protozoa and they can develop the immunity they need to the strain they need to develop an immunity to. Since I keep my brooder extremely dry and the water clean the protozoa can't reproduce so every three days I give them more dirt from the run so they get more protozoa and can develop immunity. I don't lose chicks to Cocci when they hit the ground.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with feeding medicated feed to chicks, whether the protozoa are present or not. It will not hurt them. They can still develop the immunity they need. But unless the protozoa are present, it also does no good.

If you get your chicks vaccinated for Cocci, do not feed medicated feed. It can ruin the immunity.

 

[Forestfarm]

I'll copy something I wrote a few years back answering a different question but you may get some use out of it. It was not written about meat birds specifically, more general than that. With the way CX poop can build up they are more likely to have problems with Cocci than other chicks.


First you need to know what the "medicated" is in the medicated feed. It should be on the label. Usually it is Amprolium, Amprol, some such product, but until you read the label, you really don't know. Most "medicated' feed from major brands for chicks that will be layers uses Amprolium, but there are a few out there mostly for broilers, that use other medicines. I'll assume yours is an Amprolium product, but if it is not, then realize everything I say about it may not apply. And it is possible that the "medicated" is Amprolium AND something else.

Amprolium is not an antibiotic. It does not kill anything. It inhibits the protozoa that cause coccidiosis (often called Cocci on this forum) from multiplying in the chicken's system. It does not prevent the protozoa from multiplying; it just slows that multiplication down. There are several different strains of protozoa that can cause Cocci, some more severe than others. Chickens can develop immunity to a specific strain of the protozoa, but that does not give them immunity to all protozoa that cause Cocci.

It is not a big deal for the chicken’s intestines to contain some of the protozoa that cause Cocci. The problem comes in when the number of those protozoa gets huge. The protozoa can multiply in the chicken’s intestines but also in wet manure. For them to reproduce they need some moisture. Slightly damp isn't an issue, soaking wet is. Different protozoa strains have different strengths, but for almost all cases, if you keep the brooder dry, you will not have a problem.

To develop immunity to a specific strain, that protozoa needs to be in the chicks intestines for two or three weeks. The normal sequence is that a chick has the protozoa. It poops and some of the cysts that develop the protozoa come out in the poop. If the poop is slightly damp, those cysts develop and will then develop in the chick's intestines when the chicks eat that poop. This cycle needs go on for a few weeks so all chicks are exposed and they are exposed long enough to develop immunity. A couple of important points here. You do need to watch them to see if they are getting sick. And the key is to keep the brooder dry yet allow some of the poop to stay damp. Not soaking wet, just barely damp. Wet poop can lead to serious problems.

What sometimes happens is that people keep chicks in a brooder and feed them medicated feed while they are in the brooder. Those chicks are never exposed to the Cocci protozoa that lives in the dirt in their run, so they never develop the immunity to it. Then, they are switched to non-medicated feed and put on the ground where they are for the first time exposed to the protozoa. They do not have immunity, they do not have the protection of the medicated feed, so they get sick. Feeding medicated feed while in the brooder was a complete waste.

I do not feed medicated feed. I keep the brooder dry to not allow the protozoa to breed uncontrollably. The third day that they are in the brooder, I take a scoop of dirt from the run and feed it to them so I can introduce the protozoa and they can develop the immunity they need to the strain they need to develop an immunity to. Since I keep my brooder extremely dry and the water clean the protozoa can't reproduce so every three days I give them more dirt from the run so they get more protozoa and can develop immunity. I don't lose chicks to Cocci when they hit the ground.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with feeding medicated feed to chicks, whether the protozoa are present or not. It will not hurt them. They can still develop the immunity they need. But unless the protozoa are present, it also does no good.

If you get your chicks vaccinated for Cocci, do not feed medicated feed. It can ruin the immunity.

Thanks so much for your response. I had read your post when reading about this topic previously and it was very helpful. From all of my reading, it seems like medicated feed, corid, and vaccinating (all on their own) are good ways to prevent cocci. But perhaps vaccinating is less popular since it doesn't cover all the different variations of cocci. FWIW I ended up canceling my vaccine add-on and plan on using Corid instead.

 

[SourRoses]

The environment makes such a big difference.
I've had so many batches of chicks the last few years that I took the opportunity to experiment. Late last year I became convinced that our well water was a source of cocci.
Given only bottled water, our chicks stayed healthy without amprolium. On well water, sometimes the prevention dose of amprolium wasn't enough.

How could this be? Some possibilities included:
* We happened to have ponds nearby. Although an ideal aquifier would be isolated from a surface level body of water, who can really say if that's the case, or if it stays the case as ground conditions change over time?
* A well could be more shallow than it's supposed to be, or have an infringing drain field or be contaminated by flooding. There's a right way for builders to take precautions, but things happen, people fib, etc.


At our new place on city water, and considering the winter season, I didn't give anything to our December chicks and they did just fine. That simply wasn't possible at the old place. It remains to be seen if spring and summer chicks do as well, but if they do I'm going to be completely convinced it was the well water. Since we are in the same city climate is the same, the flock is the same so the strain of cocci came along, and my sanitation practices remain the same.


But please note: There is a daily prevention dose and a treatment dose of corid. Prevention can be given continually until they've been on the ground 2-3 weeks. A treatment dose should only be given when they show symptoms and for a short duration, as it's a B1 (Thiamine) antagonist - it reduces the level of the vitamin which cocci needs to reproduce.
Because of this singular drawback to using amprolium, some people take a variety of approaches on dosing schedules in the hopes of giving them protection during the most risky times and "vacations" during less risk to balance out their vitamin levels.

 

[Debbie292d]

The environment makes such a big difference.
I've had so many batches of chicks the last few years that I took the opportunity to experiment. Late last year I became convinced that our well water was a source of cocci.
Given only bottled water, our chicks stayed healthy without amprolium. On well water, sometimes the prevention dose of amprolium wasn't enough.

How could this be? Some possibilities included:
* We happened to have ponds nearby. Although an ideal aquifier would be isolated from a surface level body of water, who can really say if that's the case, or if it stays the case as ground conditions change over time?
* A well could be more shallow than it's supposed to be, or have an infringing drain field or be contaminated by flooding. There's a right way for builders to take precautions, but things happen, people fib, etc.


At our new place on city water, and considering the winter season, I didn't give anything to our December chicks and they did just fine. That simply wasn't possible at the old place. It remains to be seen if spring and summer chicks do as well, but if they do I'm going to be completely convinced it was the well water. Since we are in the same city climate is the same, the flock is the same so the strain of cocci came along, and my sanitation practices remain the same.


But please note: There is a daily prevention dose and a treatment dose of corid. Prevention can be given continually until they've been on the ground 2-3 weeks. A treatment dose should only be given when they show symptoms and for a short duration, as it's a B1 (Thiamine) antagonist - it reduces the level of the vitamin which cocci needs to reproduce.
Because of this singular drawback to using amprolium, some people take a variety of approaches on dosing schedules in the hopes of giving them protection during the most risky times and "vacations" during less risk to balance out their vitamin levels.

We have well water and have it tested about once a year. We should do it more often but that's us lol. Anyway, it's always okay but a bit on the hard side. We have a water softener for the bathroom/laundry, so for the first week of having chicks I either use the soft water or just use bottled water. After a week or so, I switch them over to the well water as they have to get used to that sometime anyway.

I do think sometimes it's the water that's causing problems with some folks's chicks, but to have coccidiosis which comes from fecal matter, in your water, that'd be pretty disgusting.

 

[SourRoses]

I do think sometimes it's the water that's causing problems with some folks's chicks, but to have coccidiosis which comes from fecal matter, in your water, that'd be pretty disgusting.

Yup, it's gross, but so is city water, which is just chlorinated fecal matter water.