Results from First Year with Deep Litter Method

[Gonda]

Well, I built my coop over a gravel pile because it was there and I knew there'd be good drainage. Then, I added the materials for a compost pile (beginning with healthy dirt from a well-composted pile to bring in the organisms in the soil that decompose things).

After that you're maintaining it to keep the right balance of wet/dry, brown/green. There are many factors that will affect this...but you'll know quickly if you're going astray because it'll be stinky or wet or full of flies. If any of those things happen just educate yourself about composting solutions to correct it.

The purpose of making your litter into a compost pile is to reduce smell, reduce maintenance effort/time/money, make a healthy bedding for the birds, make a warm/soft floor for the birds in winter and when jumping down from roosts, and to turn chicken poo into great compost for the garden.

I'm planning to start the deep litter method in one of my two coops. This coop is small, and has a concrete floor which for some reason has been getting quite damp this year, possibly due to poor drainage underneath and tends to be smelly. The other coop is dry in comparison and doesn't smell. So I thought I'd start with the small coop. But I'm wondering how to get the right composition of wet/dry and green/brown at this time of year. I understand the rationale for this, as I make compost for my garden. I'm in BC, Canada, and we're in the rainy season. So of course no green to be had, and the leaves on the compost pile and garden are wet. And the lawn clippings underneath the leaves are partially composted, and a bit wet as well. Is it OK to start with this material, in the absence of green material? For dry, I can add shavings. And I have organic garden soil. What would you suggest for starting now? I thought this might be a good time to start, in light of the damp concrete floor and smell issues in this particular coop. Just want to make sure I start right. I really appreciate your postings on this topic and hope this reaches you, Daisy8s. But if others with experience want to jump in as well, any advice would be appreciated.

 

[Beekissed]

If you've got some rich soil or compost to jump start your litter, that's a nice place to start. I'd avoid the shavings...they take forever to compost, especially in a coop setting. I'd stick with leaves and other easily composted materials and layer them in slowly as you have a small space. Don't stir too often so you can trap the moisture coming into the bottom of your coop right there at the bottom where it belongs and merely add dry leaves when you need to do so. Flipping the manure under the roosts into the bottom layers, much like one flips a pancake, seems to be a good way to integrate the manure....much better than "stirring it in".

When that no longer keeps the bedding dry there, I'd just add a thin layer of dry leaves to that to keep the uppermost bedding dry. Key to all of that is adjustable ventilation and plenty of it at all levels.

Leaves, small twigs, woody stems of flowers and such, minimal hay or straw, ramial wood chips, pine cones or needles, garden debris, kitchen scraps...a goodly mix of all these things seems to be the most successful, IME. My DL didn't start to be truly effective until I stopped adding pine shavings altogether and now my coop produces more compost in one season that it did in three year's time when I had even a little pine shavings added to the mix.

 

[Daisy8s]

Oh my, it's good to see this thread still running after all this time!

As for "green" there will be plenty of that from the chicken manure. If you add in kitchen scraps those are considered "green" as well. We usually work harder to find enough "brown" to keep the litter dry and balanced.

I'd be very concerned about starting a deep litter method (or any bedding method) over a damp, smelly concrete floor. It just seems like you need to figure out the underlying problem rather than pile things on top. But, only you know how much time/energy/capacity you have for investigating and solving a problem such as poor drainage.

I'd also be very reluctant to add any bedding material that is wet from being out in the rain. One purpose of the leaves and grass clippings is to absorb moisture from the manure. A floor that is more wet than dry will lead to a very stinky coop.

Sorry I haven't been very encouraging but it's best to go into any project with your eyes open to the challenges that you face ahead. In summary, a) figure out what is causing the damp smelly concrete, and b) only add completely dry bedding materials.

Good luck!

 

[Beekissed]

I tend to think the dampness of her/his concrete will be a bonus, as most concrete floored coops struggle to have enough moisture to encourage decomposition of the materials. One needs moisture and certain molds for composting and this coop sounds ideal for it...it's much like having one with a soil floor in that regard. As long as good ventilation is part of this picture, I see no problems with this coop that would otherwise not be such a great place for chickens...the DL could become the way to balance that building out and provide a more healthy environment with the addition of compost.

 

[Daisy8s]

I tend to think the dampness of her/his concrete will be a bonus, as most concrete floored coops struggle to have enough moisture to encourage decomposition of the materials. One needs moisture and certain molds for composting and this coop sounds ideal for it...it's much like having one with a soil floor in that regard. As long as good ventilation is part of this picture, I see no problems with this coop that would otherwise not be such a great place for chickens...the DL could become the way to balance that building out and provide a more healthy environment with the addition of compost.

That's the tough thing about providing advice on this forum. It is hard to quantify things like "damp" and "smelly". What is damp to some people may be classified as wet to others so it's hard to know if DL is a great solution for that coop or will contribute to the problem.

Incidentally...I looked back and noted that I started this thread in 2012. Wow, how time flies!

Thanks for all the great advice you've given, Beekissed, in that time. You've certainly kept this thread alive and informative.

 

[Beekissed]

Thanks for starting it, it has guided many people to trying deep litter and many with great success!

I know I struggle to keep good moisture in my coop DL, even with a soil floor and being at the base of a hill, so I value moisture in a coop more than many might do. I have to intentionally allow my coop to leak~a lot~to get enough moisture to turn out really good compost there and I live in a climate that is humid and gets plenty of rain, but sometimes it's still not enough.

There is a delicate balance between the ventilation that moves the air and humidity out and the ventilation that also can dry out the DL, so it's always a dance. If someone has a naturally wet floor in a coop, that's half the battle from where I'm standing.

I know this forum teaches wet is bad, but in the ideal DL situation I think natural wetness is the key to it all and can be managed better than a too dry coop where you have to add moisture to get the DL to diminish regularly. That leaves many out there cleaning out their DL a couple of times a year just because it's getting too deep~in other words it's not composting down enough to add more and must be removed and composted on the outside of the coop to complete the process.

 

[Gonda]

Thanks, Beekissed and Daisy8s, for your responses. I appreciate it and it's good to read the varying perspectives and the rationale you each provide. To clarify, the floor isn't overly wet, but damp enough that the shavings get noticeably moist when it's raining. I did have a problem with rodents burrowing under this coop a few years ago, and I wonder if that has resulted in tunnels or channels underneath, for the rain to get in there. Not sure what to do about that. But I'm glad to hear from Beekissed that this may not be a deterrent to the DLM, but may actually contribute to success. I'm sorry to hear though that you don't recommend shavings, as I just bought some more, and I thought that would help add the dry element,especially since the compost and leaves are now wet. We have a week of sunny dry weather in the forecast so I'll stir up the pile and will cover it with a tarp to prevent rain from landing right on it in future.

Beekissed, it sounds like you're not concerned about the compost being moist. And you also mention mold. I have a composter which has dry compost (leaves, grass from last mowing) and to which I add kitchen scraps, some of which were moldy, which is why it didn't go to the chickens. Would you add that to this mixture? I thought to add it since it's dry but then was concerned about the moldy items that have been added. This is a tumbler composter so I can tumble it regularly, but it's not really composting because the temperature isn't warm enough and it didn't build up any heat.

I'm also wondering what you consider a well ventilated coop. This coop has some open space at the top, and there are lots of tiny holes in the walls (like nail holes) as it was made using metal sheeting left over from a barn construction. And there is a window but I don't open the window in winter. Should I be opening the window a crack, let's say, during the day? But that makes it colder. How important is it to keep the coop "warm", i.e. minimize draft in winter? I have a lamp on for 14 hours during the day (a 60 watt bulb, but it's an LED lamp that doesn't give a lot of heat).

I've learned the art of composting using a tumbler composter, which supports the concept of creating ideal conditions for composting. This is a new challenge, recreating the conditions in a coop in winter. I had forgotten that the chicken manure will add the "green" or nitrogen, as will the kitchen scraps. Thanks for that reminder.

 

[Beekissed]

Thanks, Beekissed and Daisy8s, for your responses. I appreciate it and it's good to read the varying perspectives and the rationale you each provide. To clarify, the floor isn't overly wet, but damp enough that the shavings get noticeably moist when it's raining. I did have a problem with rodents burrowing under this coop a few years ago, and I wonder if that has resulted in tunnels or channels underneath, for the rain to get in there. Not sure what to do about that. But I'm glad to hear from Beekissed that this may not be a deterrent to the DLM, but may actually contribute to success. I'm sorry to hear though that you don't recommend shavings, as I just bought some more, and I thought that would help add the dry element,especially since the compost and leaves are now wet. We have a week of sunny dry weather in the forecast so I'll stir up the pile and will cover it with a tarp to prevent rain from landing right on it in future.

Beekissed, it sounds like you're not concerned about the compost being moist. And you also mention mold. I have a composter which has dry compost (leaves, grass from last mowing) and to which I add kitchen scraps, some of which were moldy, which is why it didn't go to the chickens. Would you add that to this mixture? I thought to add it since it's dry but then was concerned about the moldy items that have been added. This is a tumbler composter so I can tumble it regularly, but it's not really composting because the temperature isn't warm enough and it didn't build up any heat.

I'm also wondering what you consider a well ventilated coop. This coop has some open space at the top, and there are lots of tiny holes in the walls (like nail holes) as it was made using metal sheeting left over from a barn construction. And there is a window but I don't open the window in winter. Should I be opening the window a crack, let's say, during the day? But that makes it colder. How important is it to keep the coop "warm", i.e. minimize draft in winter? I have a lamp on for 14 hours during the day (a 60 watt bulb, but it's an LED lamp that doesn't give a lot of heat).

I've learned the art of composting using a tumbler composter, which supports the concept of creating ideal conditions for composting. This is a new challenge, recreating the conditions in a coop in winter. I had forgotten that the chicken manure will add the "green" or nitrogen, as will the kitchen scraps. Thanks for that reminder.

Good ventilation is ventilation that provides for constant movement of air in the coop, no matter what season...air that moves isn't exactly a breeze or draft, but just fresh air intake and stale air outtake opportunities. Cold is not a problem, but humidity is and stale air is. Chickens are ideally suited for cold if they've been allowed to grow a winter coat, some chickens are more ideally suited than others for this.

To give you an example of how much ventilation I call good, the whole top half of my coop door is open air, as well as are the two small windows on either side of the door, as well as many large cracks at all levels, a square foot pop door open at all times right under the roosts, and 4 in. wide roof vents on either end of the coop...one of which is pretty much level with the chicken's heads if they are on the top roosts. And temps can dip to 17 below zero here and stay subzero for a couple of weeks at a time. Even with all that going on my coop is normally 10 degrees warmer at the roost level than the outside temps. And no frostbite...nada, none, zip.

And that's just my ventilation in the winter months....in the warmer months both sides of the coop are opened up, as is all three large windows and two smaller windows. In other words, as much airflow as possible comes through that coop. DL has some humidity and warmth to it, just as any compost pile will, so removing those is key....but that warm air rising past the birds can also act like a nice, balmy source of heat in the winter, just as long as that humidity is moving instead of settling on the birds themselves.

Mold is a fact of life in compost and it's never a problem in a coop unless it's black mold and the air is not moving. The molds in good compost are healthy and can be found in any forest floor, most healthy soils, etc. I don't mind a bit for mold or moldy food in my coop and the chickens will consume different types of mold without any problems. Mold is an over exaggerated danger in my world...I have plenty of air flow and mold spores are just not a problem. I'm actually encouraging the formation of these fungi in my coop in order for the organic material to be composted.

I know it sounds contrary to any chicken book or site advice you've probably ever heard, but it most closely mimics the forest floor conditions a bird experiences in the wild and it can be done as long as they have plenty of ventilation to accompany it. It's about the only salvation for a damp coop where mold will form anyway...it might as well be a healthy form of mold that benefits from that dampness instead of a less beneficial type. Good fungi most often keeps more harmful fungal growth in check.

 

[Gonda]

DL has some humidity and warmth to it, just as any compost pile will, so removing those is key....but that warm air rising past the birds can also act like a nice, balmy source of heat in the winter, just as long as that humidity is moving instead of settling on the birds themselves.

Thanks Beekissed. Very helpful response. Have you thought of writing a book or an e-book? You communicate very well and respond to questions very succinctly and thoroughly.

When you say "DL has some humidity and warmth to it...so removing those is key..." what do you mean there?

 

[Beekissed]

I've thought of that, even been encouraged muchly to do so, but have little inclination. Thank you for the compliment!

The heat and humidity from the composting material can cause problems for the flock if not redirected out of the coop. When humidity settles on combs and wattles of the chickens during cold weather it can cause some frostbite and cause them to suffer more from the cold than when they are dry. The moisture rising~meeting the chilled air of winter~and settling on the top of the bedding can also cause a more chilled and damp environment than a warm and pleasant one. Thus the importance to move both of these things out of the coop.

I found that out a couple of winters ago when I buckled down my coop too tightly in the winter time~making the age old mistake of thinking closing up all the ventilation would keep them warmer~which resulted in damp bedding and damp, chilled and stale coop air. I didn't get frostbite but I think it was due to realizing it soon enough and making adjustments in time. I had not allowed enough movement of that humidity out of the coop and was getting condensation in the roof of my coop, which then dripped on my chickens at night while they were on the roosts. Not good.

The following year I made some major changes to increase adjustable ventilation so that I could close up some of it when it got to subzero temps but couldn't close all of it down no matter what....I didn't want to be tempted to do that again. The next year the temps got even colder than the year before and my coop was much more open air...but the bedding stayed dry on top, the chickens seemed more comfortable, no condensation in the ceiling, coop air was nice and dry even with the DL cooking away beneath the bedding and no frostbite whatsoever all winter long. That winter many people reported frozen combs, wattles, toes and even whole feet in their flocks but I didn't even have a darkened comb in mine.

In the winter time, especially, fresh air is important to prevent illness in the flock...as with any enclosed environment, if one creature is sick and the air is stale, those germs will linger in the air long enough for others to contract the same illness. Couple that with the need to remove humidity and you've got a real need for cross ventilation that moves warm, humid air upwards and out of the coop. If you've got it just right, it can warm your chickens as it moves on past them, particularly at night while they are on the roost.