St. John's Wort

[chooks4life]

I'm very confused about how to use the Hypericum.

The original recipe, from what I understand, uses the homeopathic pellets.

I have some 30c pellets. I dissolve them in 1 Tbsp distilled water, then give my chicken 10 drops of this. This seems odd to me, because by the time the hypericum is 30c, There's pretty much nothing in there, then diluting it with 1 Tbsp makes the hypericum quantity microscopic, then only giving 10 drops it it seems like it would be virtually nothing.

Then I've been reading in this thread about how some people can't find the homeopathic pellets, and use the tablets from the grocery store. These are not homeopathic, but are straight, pure Hypericum. The dosage of giving one of these vs the homeopathic in the original recipe has got to be about a million times greater.

I've read about peoples' vets recommending they try hypericum for their birds - which one: homepoathic or straight shot pure stuff?

The store also has Hypericum extract in liquid form with a dropper. This would be super easy to administer, but is even more concentrated than te tablets.

I'm torn between trying the original recipe using the 30c homeopathic and feeling like I'm really not giving her any active ingredient, vs using the tablets or extract form, knowing she's getting something, but might be giving her a lethal dose. The past few days, I've just been giving her the homeopathic pellet straight out of my hand. she just gobbles it up.

Homeopathy works with the frequency of the substance, not quantity. By the time you've gotten it, i.e. when the medicine is complete and ready to use, it is already basically just an energy imprint. There may be no molecules of the original substance left in it. But the water is physically different than it was and as long as the homeopathic was created by someone who knows what they were doing, it will work as described. I know, it's strange, I still retain some skepticism about most of it, but I've both had it work when used on me as a child and seen it work on animals.
Quote: Apparently so many people have such a hard time understanding the admittedly strange concept that some homeopathic makers add things to the label like 'two drops for adults, one for children' just because people expect there must be a certain quantity to be effective, with more corresponding to greater efficacy, when in reality one drop for adults and one for children is all that is required, and it doesn't increase or decrease in size whether you're treating a mouse or an elephant.

About using solid or liquid form, it may be a good idea, but you'd have to try it to find out if it works, I've used it before in solid form but not for Mareks'.

Best wishes.

 

[Freia]

Thank you chooks4life. Even though it still makes no sense to me, that may be the clearest explanation of homeopathy I've seen.

I've also used homeopathic preparations my whole life, and I swear they've worked. It's just never made any sense to me why or how they work. It wasn't clear to me from this thread what type of Hypericum was actually supposed to be used. I will go back to dissolving the pellet in water per the original recipe, and hope for some improvement. Got nothing to lose, right?

 

[seminolewind]

I posted on this thread almost 3 yrs ago when I first discovered my chickens had Marek’s. I would like to tell you the whole story, what I have been through, and what I hope the solution is. I am not a vet or even an expert. I’m just someone who has been going through chicken hell for 3 yrs.

Before I got my hatchery chicks I had them vaccinated for Marek’s. One died in shipment and 2 died within 24 hrs. Lost the other half of them to Marek’s when they hit 6 mon. Most of them would just die. Found some in the morning and some in the afternoon. I went to the feed store and got an antibiotic for the water. Found one alive and was able to see the symptom: looked it up on the internet and it sounded like Marek’s. Backyard Chicken had a blog about St. John's Wart. I used it and the chicken got well. Several months later the run needed some bedding. I thought OH I can use grass clippings. 2 weeks later they started dying again. I remembered that Marek’s comes from the ground so maybe up through the grass. I removed all the grass and replaced with pine shavings. Treated the sick with St. John's again. No more deaths for several months. Then I lost the hen that I had previously treated with St. John’s with no advance warning. The next Spring I got more chicks. This time from a breeder and I didn’t have them vaccinated. When old enough I put them in a separate run from the adult hatchery chickens. By the time these chicks were 5 months old my hatchery adults went broody. I got 7 chicks total. Moved the breeder pullets in with the hatchery ones which were in the old run. At 7 ish months they started dying. Lost some to Marek’s, and one to star gazer. Nothing helped this time. By the early summer I had decided it was the run that I keep the adult JGs in. I dug up all the muck and dirt down 6 in. Then replaced it with cedar shavings. I disinfected everything. By the fall they had stopped dying. In Dec I lost the last of them to warts and star gazer. But I hadn't lost anymore of the adult hatchery hens. ??? In the late fall I moved the 3 adult hatchery pullets to the old run. These chicks from the hatchery hens had been in the old run for 5 months. They were 10 months old and 2 died from Marek’s. Once again St. John’s helped but didn’t cure.

After many conversations with vets, and other breeders of my chicken breed, and even the doctor at TX Vet Med Diag Lab who is associated with TX A&M. He said it sounds like Marek’s. Even the wry neck/star gazer is from Marek’s. He said that they get it from each other’s dander (knew this) and not from the ground or the grass clippings. It doesn’t show its self until about 10 months. There is no cure. (not even St. John’s Wart) Nothing I can spray with to kill it. Once they get to the drooping wing or stumbling stage they are goners.
Two of the breeders told me they had a similar thing happen to them with Marek’s. . And that there are different strains of merek’s, tends to be in the ground, different strains in different regions, and so you may even buy a bird from another state that is big and healthy but when they get here are exposed to a different strain of merek’s and will get it and die.

The strain of Marek’s I had my chickens vaccinated with came from Turkey’s. This made them more susceptible to other strains of Marek’s which killed them. The ones that survived became carriers. When I put the new chickens in with the vaccinated ones they got Marek’s. What am I going to do? Slaughter all the chickens in the old run. All of them! Then I have to dig all the dirt out down 6 inches. This dirt has to be disposed of OFF my property to prevent further exposure. I even have to destroy the coop because the inside wasn’t painted and I can’t disinfect the raw wood. All feeding and watering items have to be disinfected. Lastly everything else, the wood fence poles, the fence, the remaining ground, everything has to be sprayed down with bleach or a stronger disinfectant. Then we can build a new coop and give the whole area several months to breathe before I can put chickens back in it.

I hope this helps others. And you are welcome to email me with questions.

I'm sorry you're going thru this. I know many have.
The best thing to use so far is Virkon, mix the powder and set up a hose sprayer. Virkon is the only one that states it will work on porous surfaces. Or ACTivated Oxine.
Marek's seems to be worse in the spring and fall, so sometimes you are treating , and it slows down again, and you think you're gaining ground.
Unless you've sent chickens for necropsy, you will never be sure that it's Marek's or something like Aspergillosis, which has very similar symptoms. I think star gazing can be more likely a symptom of aspergillosis-the neuro part.

Recently I sent a "Marek's" bird for necropsy, only to find out that she died of Aspergillosis, and was negative for Marek's. So I will be having another bird blood tested and see what happens.

I have a reference book here that says the strains are actually different strengths of virulence and not actual different strains. They mark them as Virulent, Very Virulent, and Very Very Virulent ( V, VV, VVV), etc.

You really can't clean it away 100%, but lessening the concentration is good. But please have a bird tested so you know for sure.

 

[Nambroth]

I'm sorry you're going thru this. I know many have.
The best thing to use so far is Virkon, mix the powder and set up a hose sprayer. Virkon is the only one that states it will work on porous surfaces. Or ACTivated Oxine.
Marek's seems to be worse in the spring and fall, so sometimes you are treating , and it slows down again, and you think you're gaining ground.
Unless you've sent chickens for necropsy, you will never be sure that it's Marek's or something like Aspergillosis, which has very similar symptoms. I think star gazing can be more likely a symptom of aspergillosis-the neuro part.

Recently I sent a "Marek's" bird for necropsy, only to find out that she died of Aspergillosis, and was negative for Marek's. So I will be having another bird blood tested and see what happens.

I have a reference book here that says the strains are actually different strengths of virulence and not actual different strains. They mark them as Virulent, Very Virulent, and Very Very Virulent ( V, VV, VVV), etc.

You really can't clean it away 100%, but lessening the concentration is good. But please have a bird tested so you know for sure.

Absolutely right. The most recent research (that I could find) separates the Marek's disease virus strains and is further divided into pathotypes, designated as mild (m), virulent (v), very virulent (vv), and very virulent plus (vv+).

 

[seminolewind]

Next, it will be vvv+++

 

[cjpines]

Had to put down our bird with Marek's. We took her to the vet after 5 days of being sick. She put her on Hypericum. She stayed on this herb for 4 days and suddenly regressed. Possibly if taken right away it would of worked?

 

[casportpony]

Had to put down our bird with Marek's. We took her to the vet after 5 days of being sick. She put her on Hypericum. She stayed on this herb for 4 days and suddenly regressed. Possibly if taken right away it would of worked?

Don't beat yourself up, I've tried it on a few and it hasn't worked for me.

-Kathy

 

[cjpines]

Don't beat yourself up, I've tried it on a few and it hasn't worked for me.

-Kathy

That makes me feel better, Tks

 

[casportpony]

FYI, I think if you ask the labs at UC Davis you'll find that Marek's is one of the top 5 causes of death. If not top 5, definitely top 10.
Since you're in CA you should know that necropsies are free for us and they'll even let us use their FedEx number to ship them.

• http://www.cahfs.ucdavis.edu/
• https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/799747/how-to-send-a-bird-for-a-necropsy-pictures

-Kathy

 

[chooks4life]

Thank you chooks4life. Even though it still makes no sense to me, that may be the clearest explanation of homeopathy I've seen.

I've also used homeopathic preparations my whole life, and I swear they've worked. It's just never made any sense to me why or how they work. It wasn't clear to me from this thread what type of Hypericum was actually supposed to be used. I will go back to dissolving the pellet in water per the original recipe, and hope for some improvement. Got nothing to lose, right?

You're welcome, and you're right, you've got nothing to lose. Hope it works.

Had to put down our bird with Marek's. We took her to the vet after 5 days of being sick. She put her on Hypericum. She stayed on this herb for 4 days and suddenly regressed. Possibly if taken right away it would of worked?

I'm inclined to think most just won't make it, after all by the time they show serious symptoms it's already advanced. Sorry for your loss, but as Kathy said, no point beating yourself up about it. You did all you could, even went the extra mile, and I would guess there's very little chance it would have worked if you'd started earlier. Breeding for resistance makes more sense to me. With most serious diseases I've encountered I've saved what I could but not bred those who needed saving, just those that didn't. Saves you grief down the track.

Best wishes.