St. John's Wort

[chicknmania]

See my posts from August re toxicity of St John's Wart. It's not toxic at all, administered properly.

 

[CrazyTalk]

@CrazyTalk ... I know it's another popular myth that homeopathic formulas contain nothing, but they do, just in very, very tiny doses. Granted, some really unscrupulous sorts likely sell water in a bottle LOL.

Its not a myth at all - and the math to prove it is very simple.

If you start with 1L of 100% active ingredient (most homeopathics start with a couple %), a 1C dilution is 1%.

a 2C dilution is .01%
a 3C dilution is .0001%
a 4C dilution is .000001%
a 5C dilution is .00000001% etc.

A 4C solution is what we call ISO3696 - water for analytical laboratory use - this is cleaner than distilled, etc. This water is so pure that it can't be stored in glass or plastic because it starts sucking impurities out of the walls of the container. Glass must first be washed in hydrofluoric acid to store it.

At roughly 12 C, you run into what's call the 'Molar Limit" - this is the point where it becomes a significant statistical improbability that there is a single molecule of the original ingredient left. There are 6.02x10^23 molecules in a liter of water - at this point you've diluted to 1:10^24.

At a 30C diltution, it would require 2 BILLION doses to have a reasonable chance of getting one molecule of the original ingredient. We're talking volumes of water larger than all the worlds oceans.


So - it's not an issue of some being unscrupulous - it's that the whole concept is unscrupulous - and not based on fact or science. The guiding principal of homeopathy is 'like cures like' - you can cure a rash by giving someone poison ivy, for instance. The dilutions started because homeopathic physicians were killing large percentages of their patients. They realized that if you dilute things far enough that you're not killing people, enough people get better on their own that it looks like you're doing something.


If you think St John's Wort is a cure/treatment for this - use St. John's wort. Stop wasting your time with the homeopathic sugar pills.
'

 

[chicknmania]

Quote:
What do you care what people use, as long as it works??? Sounds to me like you have a problem with people that have used it with success. Sad that you seem to be trying to destroy the hope of others for whom it MIGHT work. I am living testimony to say that it HAS worked for me, and I am not the only one. It has worked for me twice. Sometimes it does not. The same as everything else. If you want to argue about homeopathic vs everything else, start another thread. THIS thread is about Hypericum and St John's Wart, and people's experiences with it. I'm sure you were asked nicely before to start another thread, but I'll ask you again. Please start another thread .. You are making THIS thread very tedious to read. Thanks. Also you said before that Homeopathic HP does not contain SJW. Uh.....yes. it does. Read the link I posted.

 

[CrazyTalk]

Also you said before that Homeopathic HP does not contain SJW. Uh.....yes. it does. Read the link I posted.

The link you posted has nothing to do with homeopathy - it's a wiki article about Saint Johns Wort.

Homeopathy and herbal remedies are NOT THE SAME THING.

Homeopathic remedies are water. If something contains an active ingredient - it's not homeopathic anymore. Herbal remedies range from useless to effective to extremely toxic - and have actual active ingredients.


What I want people like you to do is stop pretending they're the same thing, and stop confusing people - it's important that people trying to treat their birds know the difference.

 

[chicknmania]

The link you posted has nothing to do with homeopathy - it's a wiki article about Saint Johns Wort.

Homeopathy and herbal remedies are NOT THE SAME THING.

Homeopathic remedies are water. If something contains an active ingredient - it's not homeopathic anymore. Herbal remedies range from useless to effective to extremely toxic - and have actual active ingredients.


What I want people like you to do is stop pretending they're the same thing, and stop confusing people - it's important that people trying to treat their birds know the difference.

The article clearly states it is referring to Hypericum Perforatum.

 

[CrazyTalk]

The article clearly states it is referring to Hypericum Perforatum.

Hypericum Perforatum is the scientific name of St. Johns Wort - not a reference to a product.

 

[casportpony]

Tried the Hypericum treatment last night on a young hen who just began exhibiting symptoms of Marek's. She could not walk and didn't try. We have had ongoing problems after buying a number of pullets from a "registered" seller. LOL Anyway, I isolated her and put her in the hospital with another hen with Marek's, gave both the treatment and upon inspection this morning the "no walker" was up and moving around normally. I am ecstatic. The other hen still exhibits symptoms but I'll continue medicating her. Thank you for this invaluable information.

Welcome to BYC!

-Kathy

 

[CrazyTalk]

It's not about the molecules of the original ingredient but the energy/frequency of it which the secussion disperses throughout the water; that's the main working theory as I understand it.

I'm not a homeopathy aficionado at all; I would preferentially use the plant itself, too many people do make BS formulas, with nothing in them.

There is no "working theory" to homeopathy - as a theory requires a history of quantified results in controlled study supporting it. Homeopathy doesn't even rise to the level of 'Hypothesis' in a scientific sense, because it's explanations violate all known scientific laws. (homeopathy purports that solutions get stronger when you dilute them - this is nonsense)

Any homeopathic dilution of higher than 12C has absolutely no active ingredient. Any higher than 5C has very little probability of having an active ingredient, and is the equivalent of lab grade distilled water. The math here is very simple, and very clear.

The OP wants to talk about using St. John's Wort to treat Marek's - my goal is to make sure that you guys get some useable data out of this thread- and that can't happen if people aren't very clear about what they're using to treat their birds. The data is useless if people are conflating two very different courses of treatment, and like you, pretending they're the same thing.

Herbal and Homeopathic do not mean the same thing. Herbal remedies have active ingredients. Homeopathic remedies are magic.

 

[casportpony]

Has anyone ever tried something like meloxicam? Maybe that would reduce the inflammation of the nerves?

-Kathy

 

[chooks4life]

The following journals are peer-reviewed. Here's some of the 'nonexistent' science... It works for some, so there's no reasonable basis for repeatedly dismissing someone's belief or opinion as scientifically baseless or 'magic' or other disparaging remarks.

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Best wishes.