The Ameraucana Thread: Where everything and anything about the breed can be discussed (APA, Non-Stan

[ChickNmamma]

He said he bred for egg color. I saw his nests, and they were full of blue eggs. No, she wasn't a cull. He let me pick whichever bird I wanted from his flock, and I thought she was pretty, so I picked her, she was around 24 weeks, so hadn't started laying yet.

Hmm.. so you just lost out on the egg gamble. Dang, he must have lost the blue egg gene somehow in that one bird, which means from her parents she didn't get the gene. He may have a few more brown egg layers come up.. did you tell him so he can figure out where its coming from?

P.S. - the dirt fluffing picture shows her blue color well, the second picture is not good for color. Post the dirt fluffing picture over here.

 

[my sunwolf]

Here she is =)

I agree, better pics would help. From these photos she doesn't look pure to me, doesn't look that much like a Blue Wheaten either, but she is pretty.

 

[salt and pepper]

Here's a pic when she was clean

 

[salt and pepper]

No, I didn't tell him, there were a couple of things I didn't agree on, but I just left it.

 

[Outrun Acres]

Here's a pic when she was clean

Wow! That looks like a completely different bird now!

 

[ChickNmamma]

No, I didn't tell him, there were a couple of things I didn't agree on, but I just left it.

Ah. so now I understand your disappointment when you got a brown egg if he was showing you only nice blue ones. She has nice color (when clean) and body shape, but because of the brown egg you don't know what genetics got in there. Breed her to a known blue egg gene AM and use her babies or just keep her for a pet/egg layer would be my choices. I wouldn't want to chance a problem with showing her unless you just want to show something and learn more about the breed. I have seen EEs shown as AMs - there were even some at the big Stockton Show in January! She is much closer to type than they were.

 

[salt and pepper]

Ah. so now I understand your disappointment when you got a brown egg if he was showing you only nice blue ones. She has nice color (when clean) and body shape, but because of the brown egg you don't know what genetics got in there. Breed her to a known blue egg gene AM and use her babies or just keep her for a pet/egg layer would be my choices. I wouldn't want to chance a problem with showing her unless you just want to show something and learn more about the breed. I have seen EEs shown as AMs - there were even some at the big Stockton Show in January! She is much closer to type than they were.

If I bred her I pay the extra price, and get a good rooster, I won't be getting more chicks from him, It's just not worth the chance. I really just want to show for the experience, and if she gets in the top three, that's a bonus =) Thank you for your advice, I'll have to post a pic when she's clean!

 

[my sunwolf]

Here's a pic when she was clean

Wow! Agreed, what the heck? That looks much more like a blue.

 

[Tailfeathers]

I was wondering if that was the brown egg layer - she really does appear on the outside exactly like an Ameraucana (and she may well be). However, I would doubt the breeder you got her from was doing what they should if they managed to totally loose the blue egg gene AND bring in brown eggs! Possibly breeding for eggs made them choose away from the blue egg gene - and they lost it on the mother and the father... Were you told she was a "cull" from the breeding program?

She is a pretty bird, and you could possibly show her - but if she laid a brown egg before the judge she would be DQd. I would breed her to a known solid blue egg gene rooster (Black or Splash AM, probably NOT from that breeder)- and use her kids. They would have green eggs, but that would be "acceptable". It would also be a good way to test her genetics - at least 50% of her children must conform to the AM standards to call her an AM (that's the last qualification that no EEs can meet).

Also, I have been reading that blue is a hard color to show. The birds aren't correct for the color yet, some lacing is not distinct, the heads are supposed to be darker, etc... - and some judges like dark blue (but not too dark) and some judges like lighter.

Ah. so now I understand your disappointment when you got a brown egg if he was showing you only nice blue ones. She has nice color (when clean) and body shape, but because of the brown egg you don't know what genetics got in there. Breed her to a known blue egg gene AM and use her babies or just keep her for a pet/egg layer would be my choices. I wouldn't want to chance a problem with showing her unless you just want to show something and learn more about the breed. I have seen EEs shown as AMs - there were even some at the big Stockton Show in January! She is much closer to type than they were.

Jerry's been breeding a lot longer than I have, like what, 40 years? So, this is for those who don't know that but he's right. Just saying he don't need me to second that. It happens and one can't necessarily assume that "the breeder you got her from was doing what they should if they managed to totally loose the blue egg gene AND bring in brown eggs!"

I've written about his extensively on the "other" thread for anyone interested in reading more about it. Suffice it for now to say I have true W & BW hens that lay white and one creamy tan egg and it was a direct result of my intentional effort to identify what birds are carrying brown egg gene modifiers and increase production. This is from linebreeding a closed flock so it's not due to any accidental infusion of new blood or such.

Also, with regard to the comment "you could possibly show her - but if she laid a brown egg before the judge she would be DQd." That's not necessarily true either. The only place that egg color is mentioned is in the General Characteristics paragraph and under Economical Qualities. Egg color is not listed under Disqualifications and there is no place on a judges score sheet for egg color. Both judges on BYC and elsewhere have told me that they would not DQ a bird for not laying a blue egg. I've also talked with them and written extensively on the "other" thread about the fact that I have a BW hen that once laid a light blue egg and is now laying a white egg. My guess is due to age. And I've posed the question, "What is blue?" What about a true Am that lays more of a green egg than blue? How many would claim it should be DQ'd? Why would you say that "green is acceptable" but white or brown is not? If a bird would be DQd for not being blue then green isn't blue either. Perhaps that is one reason, if not the reason, why egg color is not on a judges score sheet.

I would also add that if a bird is laying a brown egg (not talking about a light creamy tan but brown) then it more than likely would have other traits that would DQ it from being a true Am. Like for example yellow skin or the bottoms of their feet being other than white.

I would agree with all of the second post but I would add that since you are basically starting out, if you really want to get into breeding and showing (which I would strongly encourage you to do!), I would recommend starting with the best you can. It takes a LOT of work and years of working at it to figure out what your flock possesses in terms of genetics. Make it as easy on yourself as you can by starting with the best and "cleanest" birds you can. I can't speak to all varieties because I really only know anything (and I'm not saying it's all that much) about the WBS. That being said, I know the WBS still need a lot of work. So I wouldn't recommend somebody starting out from brown eggs and trying to get to blue. Start with the bluest eggs you can from the nicest birds (closest to SOP) that you can and work up from there.

I have also seen EE's shown as Am's. Numerous times and, in fact, it just happened last Saturday. Bird was shown as a BW and it not only didn't look like a BW but it had bright green legs! It's a little disappointing to me that after almost 30 years of being a breed, a lot of judges still do not know what a true Ameraucana is.

God Bless,

Royce

 

[ChickNmamma]

Quote:
I was wondering if that was the brown egg layer - she really does appear on the outside exactly like an Ameraucana (and she may well be). However, I would doubt the breeder you got her from was doing what they should if they managed to totally loose the blue egg gene AND bring in brown eggs! Possibly breeding for eggs made them choose away from the blue egg gene - and they lost it on the mother and the father... Were you told she was a "cull" from the breeding program?

She is a pretty bird, and you could possibly show her - but if she laid a brown egg before the judge she would be DQd. I would breed her to a known solid blue egg gene rooster (Black or Splash AM, probably NOT from that breeder)- and use her kids. They would have green eggs, but that would be "acceptable". It would also be a good way to test her genetics - at least 50% of her children must conform to the AM standards to call her an AM (that's the last qualification that no EEs can meet).

Also, I have been reading that blue is a hard color to show. The birds aren't correct for the color yet, some lacing is not distinct, the heads are supposed to be darker, etc... - and some judges like dark blue (but not too dark) and some judges like lighter.

Ah. so now I understand your disappointment when you got a brown egg if he was showing you only nice blue ones. She has nice color (when clean) and body shape, but because of the brown egg you don't know what genetics got in there. Breed her to a known blue egg gene AM and use her babies or just keep her for a pet/egg layer would be my choices. I wouldn't want to chance a problem with showing her unless you just want to show something and learn more about the breed. I have seen EEs shown as AMs - there were even some at the big Stockton Show in January! She is much closer to type than they were.

Jerry's been breeding a lot longer than I have, like what, 40 years? So, this is for those who don't know that but he's right. Just saying he don't need me to second that. It happens and one can't necessarily assume that "the breeder you got her from was doing what they should if they managed to totally loose the blue egg gene AND bring in brown eggs!"

I've written about his extensively on the "other" thread for anyone interested in reading more about it. Suffice it for now to say I have true W & BW hens that lay white and one creamy tan egg and it was a direct result of my intentional effort to identify what birds are carrying brown egg gene modifiers and increase production. This is from linebreeding a closed flock so it's not due to any accidental infusion of new blood or such.

Also, with regard to the comment "you could possibly show her - but if she laid a brown egg before the judge she would be DQd." That's not necessarily true either. The only place that egg color is mentioned is in the General Characteristics paragraph and under Economical Qualities. Egg color is not listed under Disqualifications and there is no place on a judges score sheet for egg color. Both judges on BYC and elsewhere have told me that they would not DQ a bird for not laying a blue egg. I've also talked with them and written extensively on the "other" thread about the fact that I have a BW hen that once laid a light blue egg and is now laying a white egg. My guess is due to age. And I've posed the question, "What is blue?" What about a true Am that lays more of a green egg than blue? How many would claim it should be DQ'd? Why would you say that "green is acceptable" but white or brown is not? If a bird would be DQd for not being blue then green isn't blue either. Perhaps that is one reason, if not the reason, why egg color is not on a judges score sheet.

I would also add that if a bird is laying a brown egg (not talking about a light creamy tan but brown) then it more than likely would have other traits that would DQ it from being a true Am. Like for example yellow skin or the bottoms of their feet being other than white.

I would agree with all of the second post but I would add that since you are basically starting out, if you really want to get into breeding and showing (which I would strongly encourage you to do!), I would recommend starting with the best you can. It takes a LOT of work and years of working at it to figure out what your flock possesses in terms of genetics. Make it as easy on yourself as you can by starting with the best and "cleanest" birds you can. I can't speak to all varieties because I really only know anything (and I'm not saying it's all that much) about the WBS. That being said, I know the WBS still need a lot of work. So I wouldn't recommend somebody starting out from brown eggs and trying to get to blue. Start with the bluest eggs you can from the nicest birds (closest to SOP) that you can and work up from there.

I have also seen EE's shown as Am's. Numerous times and, in fact, it just happened last Saturday. Bird was shown as a BW and it not only didn't look like a BW but it had bright green legs! It's a little disappointing to me that after almost 30 years of being a breed, a lot of judges still do not know what a true Ameraucana is.

God Bless,

Royce

Yes, you are correct. I cannot fault a breeder for a fluke and say they are trying to pull a fast one. The difference between being shown a basket full of beautiful blue eggs and being told they breed for feather and egg color and a brown egg layer are probably one chromosome thick... just dis-heartening. I do not own the bird so I do not know the color of the egg. It may be a light tan/pink - which would happen if the blue egg gene was lost leaving only the light tan coat that would make a blue egg appear "bluer". I don't know how that works - but I have been told it does. With careful breeding you have managed to do it - so a fluke could do that too.

You are also right - I would like to change my statement about laying brown eggs at a show to "she COULD be DQd - by a judge who misinterprets the SOP for AMs". That I have heard of - the bird was DQd because of egg color. It could have been contested.. but I believe the judges comment was if it laid a brown egg it indicated the genetics were not correct for an AM.

If the bird meets the standards of an AM in every other aspect other than egg color (and I believe she does have white skin, has correct blue color and looks acceptable in the pictures for SOP) do you recommend the owner still finding another bird to show and breed because of that fluke? It would be easy to get back to blue with a light tan/pink egg - just one generation would do that with a good blue egg gened rooster.