To Worm or Not? And, Piperazine dosage for bantams?

[GardenerGal]

I've kept bantam chickens for years without any signs of worms, but today for the first time I found a mature large-roundworm and its eggs on a roost in the coop - one of the chickens had pooped it out. So obviously there is a worm population though I try to keep the barn and run clean and dry.

I'll likely treat all of my chickens, but as they are bantams I don't want to overdose them with the amount that would be used on standard chooks. How much should I use, and if I use it in drinking water -- say, a gallon-size trough -- how many drops of Piperazine should I use?

As a side note --

Some Chicken Experts (including poultry author Gail Demerow) claim that if your birds are otherwise healthy they can tolerate a certain amount of worms and that it's better to keep a clean coop and yard and try to keep the worm population down naturally, than to subject the chickens to medication. It seems like the ecological approach of balancing pathogen and chicken so they can live in "harmony," but most people I know who keep chickens advise worming twice a year as a routine procedure.

Does anyone here do the "ecological balance" approach? Or does everyone worm?

Thanks for input!

 

[threehorses]

Quote:
You sound experienced - you're certain it was a roundworm - not a tape? Because the treatment would be different? I just want to "dot my i's and cross my t's" here.

It wasn't flat and segmented, but thin and round?

Piperazine's mechanism of action is indeed that it paralyzes the worm, causing it to be expelled. Roundworms do not live for very long outside their host. So you need not be concerned about having to retrieve them. But that's one reason why I follow up with something that DOES kill them.

They do also excyst and travel, as larvae, to the lungs of the animal at one point in their development. From there they are coughed back up and reenter the digestive tract where they become adults. There they are treatable by all roundworm-effective antihelmintics. You likely know this, but this is more for someone else who might read this and not know.

If you see a bird passing a worm, it's more likely that they have a large infestation since (as you well know) you will otherwise rarely see worms in poultry. So really, unless you do a fecal egg count to show how many eggs are being shed, one must assume there COULD be a large number of worms both in the intestines and the lungs.

If you kill all of the roundworms at once, then you have these dead worms that need to be expelled. If a bird's body is presented with a high number of dead worms, they can sometimes have an anaphylactic reaction to what has essentially become a "foreign protein" in their body. Alternately, there have been cases where a large number of dead worms being expelled from the body have caused blockage.

So that's why I always recommend Wazine first. If there are a large number of roundworms (and again we have to assume it's possible unless proven otherwise by an egg count), then you won't risk the "dead worm" foreign protein effect. Because Wazine is a repeated wormer, it's less effective and you won't overload the bird with passing worms if there's a huge infestation. If there are few, you might just get them all. But it's meant to be repeated.

Instead of repeating the wazine, I like the more broad spectrum wormers that also effect cecal worms, and even external parasites, and actually paralyze as well as KILL the parasites. I'm not sure whether or not it works on the lung parasites, and would suppose it depends on the wormer. Personally I use pour-on ivermectin which doesn't go through the digestive system but through the tissues. So it would be most likely to do so. I'm looking that up now actually because I don't know. It says "immature" but I'm not sure they mean in the lungs, though I really think they do.

But since ivermectin (and fenbendazole, and levamisole, and other broad-spectrum wormers) DO kill a number of other parasites (that may not shed through the feces) I like to knock down the numbers first with wazine. Also because ivermectin kills adult and immature roundworms, I take the safe gamble and do the weaker treatment first. Then go back and blast both adult and immature worms.

I hope that makes sense.

 

[threehorses]

If you see roundworms, then there's a strong infestation. You will rarely ever see worms in the droppings otherwise. Not even if they have a medium infestation.

For Wazine 17 (piperazine 17%) you use one ounce wazine per one gallon of water. Or two measuring spoon Tablespoons of wazine per one gallon. Give as their sole source of water for 24 hours. Then remove from the coop. Retreat in 14 days with wazine, or consider treating them with a more broad spectrum wormer like fenbendazole, levamisole, or ivermectin.

My personal feeling on worms differs slightly from that of Damerow. I feel that it's best to worm twice annually and decrease the possibility of illness in the flock. My first worming I use wazine and then during the necessary re-dose (you must always repeat piperazine worming) use the stronger wormer. Then I use the stronger wormer twice annually for those birds thereafter.

New birds in the flock go through the wazine then stronger regimine unless they're chicks. I worm chicks at four months with ivermectin and put them in rotation with the adults for twice yearly.

Parasites literally scar the digestive tract as they burrow into it. Each scar in the digestive tract is one more place where nutrients can't absorb. I highly disagree that this is the way to go. I also disagree with constant worming (unless there are constant infestations, and then there's a problem with the caretaking.)

Additionally, worms decrease the immune system of birds, steal the nutrients, irritate the digestive tract, make the bird more susceptible to other digestive tract illnesses by stressing the good bacteria of the gut, increase incidences of coccidiosis (even in adults), and spread to healthy birds.

I totally believe in ecological balance, but in moderation. If you wait til you see worms, you're waiting too long.

The ideal way of doing things would be to test three or four random birds in a flock using a "fecal egg count" from a vet to see if you need to worm two or three times a year. That way it's less invasive and lets you know when to treat. For someone trained in that, it would be the best way. Or if you have a good vet who will let you just bring in a few fecal samples and charge you for that, not the visit.

p.s. (added shortly after) I was trained in doing fecals when i worked as a vet tech for a while. Honestly, I'm thinking that the equipment to do that again is going to be my "Christmas present" this year.

Alternatively, there are places online to which you can send fecal samples if you're interested. Foy's offers the service. (Call ahead to make sure they do fecals for poultry): http://www.foyspigeonsupplies.com/catalog/8000.html I believe there are other places online, too.

 

[threehorses]

I figured you did know. It was just almost like a little mental check-off box where I needed to see a check.

I had been told the gentle hit-hard hit method of worming by my livestock vets. I myself had seen cases where horses were wormed and had either the shock or enormous numbers of worms trying to pass. I had heard of at least a couple of cases of blockage. There was one case of chocking in a poster's bird where it was directly after worming for a case of heavy crop worms - and I do wish I could have been able to cross through my computer and do a necropsy to see if it was worms. I'll never know, I suppose.

The worming was firmed up for me after I had a very experienced poultry owner tell me the same - and I remembered it from vet recommendations. It just makes sense. And really it's just a one-time thing.

Oh and worms - don't worry, I do the same. Honestly my last worming was quite overdue for the same reason. "Well they look good - and I'm experienced enough to know when they look good...." It was a bird with lice that made me get off my tush and finally do this "spring's" worming. Mid year.

On the ivermectin pour on, I use 1 drop for a small OE hen sized bantam, 2 drops for an OE male to a regular small bantam, 3 drops for an average bantam or very small commercial hen, 4 drops for an average adult chicken or small large-breed hen, 5 drops for a large large-fowl bird, and 6 drops for giant breeds, a large bird. That's the blue "ivermectin" not any other '-ectin'.

I use a 3 cc syringe with a 25g needle. I of course don't inject, but I find the needle makes a very precise size of drop and allows me to place it better. I hold the syringe horizontally in case the chicken hops up so I don't poke it. Then you just have to find a very naked spot on their skin - between their shoulders or at the back of their neck works best for me. If you get it on any fluff, it will absorb into the fluff at lightening speed and then you don't know if they get it or not. So aim for very bald skin on their main body.

I treat withdrawals just as indicated for cattle. Ivermectin is not at all labeled for chickens, so we don't really know. However since it is used to treat worm infestations in humans - I like to assume that the amounts in eggs are probably safe for humans if not pregnant. However, I don't like the thought of worms being shed into an egg - so I personally withdraw for 2 weeks "just because it's icky" - such a scientific reason.

Levamisole is also a good choice if you choose it. I simply like ivermectin because it's quick, easy, safe, gets externals - that's the kicker for me.

And I'm honored to be able to help. When I needed help, often it was not there. (And when it was, I was so grateful for it that I wanted to be just as helpful as the generous people who helped me!) So it's truly my pleasure. I learn something every day, and intend to keep that going until my last day on earth. And why learn stuff if you can't share it, right?

I'm glad this helped. Please let me know which method you choose, and how you like it.

 

[Eggs4Sale]

As I have failed to ever in my life worm a chicken,

, please let me know if I have this right:

1. Wait till fall, when the temperature is not 123 degrees.

2. On the first day of treatment, put Piperazine-17 in water at the rate of 2 tablespoons per gallon.

3. Piperazine-17 is the same as Wazine-17.

4. Have this medicated water as their sole source of water for 24 hours.

5. After the 24 hours is up, dump the water and refill with fresh water.

6. On the 14th day of treatment, you have a choice.
You can either repeat steps 2 through 5,
or
You can use a broad-spectrum wormer like ferbendazole,
levamisole, orivermectin.

7. Throw away eggs collected 2 weeks after EACH round of
Piperazine-17, which means 28 days of no eggs.

8. If you choose to use one of the broad-spectrum wormers for step 6, does the 2-week-no-eggs rule still apply?


I am SO glad I read this post. I was going to worm with the Piperazine I got at the feed store yesterday. I didn't know the heat would be a factor!

Thank you threehorses and BYC for the great information!

 

[threehorses]

Quote:
The way I wormed myself this year is by worming my birds. I forgot to wear gloves and of course my boyfriend and I both got ivermectin on us. LOL BUt I'm kidding about that worming us.

Yes, this will be a tough year for it. Parasites LOVE heat (which is why many companies study their antihelmintics in Florida and Texas.) It wouldn't surprise me to hear of more cases than usual.

As for the guineas, yes they can receive the wazine. It's the same dosage so make sure it's the sole source of water for them all for a day. The guineas and chickens can (and should) also have probiotics the day or two after the worming at least.

Dogs and cats can also be wormed with piperazine, but they get a different dosage and form of it. Make sure with them you're seeing roundworms. For dogs and cats, it's really best to get a fecal egg count. But you can also get tapeworm medication over the counter if you're seeing the segments (they look like dried pieces of rice in the animal's bedding).

And thank you for your kind words. I'm glad to be of help. There were many times I myself needed it and it wasn't there. I'd like to make sure that happens less to other people.

 

[threehorses]

I raise a lot of youngsters on wire so that I can keep ages apart until at least 4 months. So usually I worm at 4 months earliest. I like the thought of their systems being parasite free when they're bulking up on nutrition that last 5th month before egg laying.

With my youngsters, I do ivernectin to start as they're not on old ground. If they're on ground, I use wazine first.

New birds, I let them get used to the place first - a month of quarantine. I worm them the last week of quarantine. If they're young like my other birds and I know where they're from, I use ivermectin. If not, I play it safe and use Wazine first, and then ivermectin follow up 2 weeks later.

Then it's usually twice a year with ivermectin.

 

[threehorses]

If your birds truly have gapeworm and you've been advised by a trusted source to do it, then yes - you technically can do it even though I do NOT like worming babies that age. But if the source is very trusted and they swear to you it's gapeworm, then gapeworm will simply kill babies. (I'll leave the diagnosing to them as I don't have enough information here to make that call). Thankfully fenbendazole is a quite safe wormer.

First, here's a helpful article with a bit on gapeworm and fenbendazole:
SOURCE: http://msucares.com/poultry/diseases/disparas.htm

Their dosage recommendation is a paste mixed with water and then mixed into feed. We'll break down the dosage, but here's the text:

QUOTE:
----------------------
"PARASITE (INTERNAL) SOLUTIONS

The following treatments have been shown to be effective for eliminating internal parasites from poultry and game birds. Neither of these drugs (fenbendazole or leviamisole) has been approved for use by FDA, so the producer accepts all responsibility for their use. Both drugs have been very effective if used properly and will eliminate most types of internal parasites that affect birds. Caution: Do not use with birds producing eggs or meat destined for human consumption.

Fenbendazole Treatments

One-day Treatment

1 oz Safeguard or Panacur per 15-20 lb feed

Dissolve the fenbendazole product in one cup of water. Mix this solution well into the feed and give to the birds as their only feed source for one day. When completely consumed, untreated feed can be given. Be sure that the commercial medication contains 10% fenbendazole.

Safeguard is a product of Ralston Purina, and Panacur is a product marketed by American Hoechst. One ounce of medication will treat about 1000 10-oz bobwhite quail. Adjustments of the amounts of medication and feed needed may be necessary depending on the number and size of the birds...."
----------------------------
QUOTE:
"Fenbendazole has been shown to be a very effective treatment for eliminating Capillaria (capillary worms), Heterakis (cecal worms), Ascaridia (roundworms), and Syngamus spp. (gapeworms). Toxicity from overdosing with fenbendazole is very remote. Research indicates that amounts up to 100 times the recommended dosages have been given under research conditions without adverse effects to the birds. Use of this product during molt, however, may cause deformity of the emerging feathers."
------------------------------
SOURCE:
http://msucares.com/poultry/diseases/solutions.html
------------------------------

OK, now - let's work this out as they have it dosed.

One ounce = 30cc'*s = recommended treatment for 20 lbs of feed.

divide that all by 10
1/10th ounce = 3 cc's = treatment for 2 pounds of feed.

*Actually it's 29.5735296 cc's but I rounded up.

So get a syringe and measure out 3 cc's of SafeGuard paste for horses. It's 10%.(** see below.) Mix that in about 1/8th of a cup of water. Mix with the crumbles and let it set for about 10 minutes til it absorbs. Feed as their only source of feed for the day, and replace regular crumbles when all of that food is gone.

Make sure all babies get a good bit of it. Note that they're growing feathers, and so their feathers will likely be a little funky.

** Here's an example of a tube:
http://www.tractorsupply.com/webapp...10551_10001_37082_-1______?rFlag=true&cFlag=1
- or the tiny link -
http://tinyurl.com/tscsfenbenforhorses


I hope this helps.

 

[GardenerGal]

Thank you for that thorough information and your thoughts, ThreeHorses. It's enormously helpful. I've had chickens most of my life and this is the first time I've seen a worm come from them. It wasn't actually in a dropping; it was a full-sized 3" round worm deposited without feces. There was no mistaking it for anything else; it was definitely a large roundworm. Maybe it wandered down the cloaca? Kind of a rude wakeup call to start worming.

None of my 22+ bantams has ever shown any signs of infestation; they are normal weight, healthy and active, and of various ages. Their droppings appear normal and show no worms. They live in a closed barn and run. So, it was kind of a shock to find that one worm.
Vets and labs that work with poultry are rare where I live; if you own fowl, you usually must be your own vet. It's good to know that I might be able to arrange for fecal tests online, and I certainly will contact Foy's. I've bought meds from them in the past and know they are reliable.

One more question, if you don't mind:
Does the Wazine/Piperazine actually kill the worms, or just temporarily anaesthetize or paralyze them? I'm concerned that if the chickens pass live adult worms, it will be impossible to find and remove them all and there might be a danger of the flock re-ingesting them. Is that a plausible problem? I realize that Piperazine only works on free-moving adult worms (thus requiring another dose after the juveniles have matured), and not the developing juveniles which are burrowed into the intestine walls and won't fall when paralyzed.

 

[Chickenmaven]

What is the withdrawl for Wazine? If I wormed my birds, would I have to throw away eggs for a week or two?