Turkey Talk for 2014

 

Twenty eight years ago I was lucky enough to take a graduate level class at UC Davis in poultry disease and necropsy interpretation.  The professor was one of those people that had the perfect persona for teaching -- he made every subject relevant to real life, not just minutia we had to know for the tests.  And he genuinely loved birds.  When he spoke of them or to them or handled them, he had a respect and a gentleness that was impossible to fake.  All the early lab sessions had the students looking at prepared slides, so it wasn't until mid-year that we worked with living birds.  I'll never forget the first live-bird lab.  There were 20 students, several teaching assistants, and this professor.  He was carrying a leghorn pullet around the room.  She had been quite flighty in her cage, but as soon as he pulled her out she relaxed.  He carried her around the room, walking slowly between the lab benches as he talked, speaking in a quiet even cadence to relax the hen, stroking her back and wings with a practiced gentleness until she was no longer tense and began to rest calmly in his hand.  He was talking about how sometimes farmers have numerous birds in the flock that are quite sick but none have died yet, and under those circumstances sometimes a bird will need to be sacrificed so that a necropsy can diagnose the illness and possibly save the rest of the flock.  He was saying that a very important part of being a pathologist is being able to kill a bird humanely, without doing anything that could cover up or be mistaken for a medical issue.  As he was talking he continued to pet the bird, and by this time she was chirping happily in his hand, allowing him to rub her neck and stroke her face without fussing.  And as he was calmly talking right in front of my lab bench, he ever so gently stroked the bird's neck with his thumb at the base of her skull, two fingers under her throat, and with a practiced flick of his wrist broke her neck.  She simply slumped in his hand, dead instantly, never showing any pain or distress of any kind.  It is shockingly easy to break a bird's neck, if done right.


Contrast that to a horrifying video I saw last year.  It was made by an humane society officer working undercover at a Butterball turkey grow out farm.  It showed a few workers trying to herd some BBW birds from one side of the barn to another.  The birds were huge, easily 25-30 lbs live weight or more, and couldn't walk very well.  But being BBWs, they were still just youngsters at that size, and like most young turkeys were friendly and begged for attention.  But the workers were rushed and insensitive, and moved the birds along as fast as possible, in any way they could.  For the friendliest of birds, the ones that kept getting in the way by approaching the workers making baby bird sounds, that included grabbing them by the necks or wings, lifting their huge bodies off the ground as they screamed in pain, and flinging them toward the other side of the barn.  Some of them never got up again.

I am not trying to accuse anyone on this site of being cruel, as I do not believe that was the intent.  And I am certainly not saying that a person can't defend themselves against a large aggressive animal.  But I have to admit that I was quite disturbed by this post -- both by the fact that a nervous novice was advised to grab a bird by the neck, lift it off the ground, shake it, and throw it down again, and by the fact that no one challenged that recommendation.  I may be relatively new to this thread, but I've been reading it long enough to know that many people who post here would never endorse this type of "discipline."  So why does no one speak out against it?  I can't be the only one who disagrees.

Aunt Kat, please do not grab your tom by the neck, lift him off the ground, shake him, then throw him down if he is acting out.  Yes, it will probably make him scared to challenge you.  Doing just about anything to him that is that painful and frightening would also probably make him scared to challenge you.  But that isn't your best option.  If you can't redirect his aggression, you can usually win the battle without causing pain or risking injury.  Every bird is different, so you have to figure out what works for each of your boys.  One of my boys is very food oriented, so the moment he starts acting out I distract him with treats, and the moment passes.  Another one would never fall for that, but he hates being restrained.  When he get feisty, I throw a towel over him and hold him until he stops struggling, then if he's really bratty, I carry him around for 4-5 minutes before letting him loose.  If he's been really bad he's carried around on his side, or rolled over on his back and held while his belly is rubbed (careful doing this with really big birds, as some won't be able to breath in this position).  One bird I just have to hold his comb and gently pull it to dominate him, as that is one of the things rooster do when they fight (although not so gently).   Start dominating them, gently but decisively, when they're as young as possible.  You'll gain confidence in working with them, and they'll grow up understanding that you're the boss.   That doesn't mean that they won't challenge you, but it won't be with the full throttle expectation of winning, so you'll be able to handle it easier.  For the occasional bird that is just plain vicious, you're probably not going to resolve that, and the freezer is probably the best place for him. 



You are quite right that I was and still am a novice with poultry. My advice was not geared to be humane but self defensive. If you do not wish to be so rough with the bird just hold him in the air so he knows that you can neutralize  his attack and take all his power away. And then release him. I do admire your professor and wish I could have had class with him. At the point I did this to the bird he had just gone after my 9 year old daughter and bitten her and she came running behind me and he rushed me. This pattern of aggressiveness had been growing. He had not responded to milder rebukes. The source of his discontent with the world was because his mate preferred the other gander, Duke. But Duke had chosen Duchess not her and she settled for him. He was insanely jealous but there was nothing that I could do that would solve it. But attacking my little girl was the last straw. I truthfully didn't care whether the rough treatment killed him or not because he had jumped my girl.

I was in this exact situation with the roo that tried to flog my son. I did not rebuke my son for kicking the roo away & I was none to gentle in shoving the bird away to rescue my son. The only reason that roo didn't get processed right then & thete was because I had never processed 1 before. I went & researched how to process & the next time he made me that mad he found himself hanging upside down in a tree & my knife at his throat. No animal ever comes before a human child.
 
I have a Naragansett Tom that is asking to be roasted. Every time our backs are turn he charges....Turn and face him and he backs off. He has only bitten once or twice..... If he keeps it up the hen will be the only mature turkey left.....
 
I have a Naragansett Tom that is asking to be roasted. Every time our backs are turn he charges....Turn and face him and he backs off. He has only bitten once or twice..... If he keeps it up the hen will be the only mature turkey left.....
My Naragansett tom felt a need to bite or taste me a few times.... so when he did I poped him. Not hard enough to hurt him but enough that he did not like it. He was my hand raised pet so I did not want to hurt him! He finally quit after a few tries. I have no idea why he did it. But he is protective over me when I am out there feeding he watches the roosters to make sure they behave... lol
 
Quote: Hi Penny Hen,
I assumed that something serious had happened for you to handle your gander in that manner, which is why I was careful to say that I did not believe that your intent was to be cruel, and that people certainly have the right to defend themselves against large aggressive animals. And I did not know that you were a novice with poultry. The reason that I was concerned was because your recommendation was in response to Aunt Kat's post. She was the one that I was calling the nervous novice, because that is what she admitted to being. She was posting that she had three sweet young toms, but she was nervous that as they grew they might become aggressive. These were not birds that were currently aggressive, or that she had any reason to believe that they would become aggressive. She was just inexperienced at handling turkeys, and she was anxious about how they would act in the future.

Because there was no context to go along with your recommendation, I was concerned that Aunt Kat, or any poultry novice, might think that lifting and shaking a bird by the neck was a normal, first-option, appropriate method of discipline for any little peck, grab, or minor challenge, as opposed to a last option for self-defense against a truly vicious giant bird.

I hope I did not offend you in any way. Clearly, you had to stop the attack immediately, it was an emergency situation, and you did what was necessary under the circumstances. I appreciate your explanation. I also agree with your above recommendation that in less dangerous situations, hold a bird up in the air so he knows that you can neutralize his attack, but just to clarify, as long as his weight is not being supported by his neck.

--April
 
Hi Penny Hen,
I assumed that something serious had happened for you to handle your gander in that manner, which is why I was careful to say that I did not believe that your intent was to be cruel, and that people certainly have the right to defend themselves against large aggressive animals. And I did not know that you were a novice with poultry. The reason that I was concerned was because your recommendation was in response to Aunt Kat's post. She was the one that I was calling the nervous novice, because that is what she admitted to being. She was posting that she had three sweet young toms, but she was nervous that as they grew they might become aggressive. These were not birds that were currently aggressive, or that she had any reason to believe that they would become aggressive. She was just inexperienced at handling turkeys, and she was anxious about how they would act in the future.

Because there was no context to go along with your recommendation, I was concerned that Aunt Kat, or any poultry novice, might think that lifting and shaking a bird by the neck was a normal, first-option, appropriate method of discipline for any little peck, grab, or minor challenge, as opposed to a last option for self-defense against a truly vicious giant bird.

I hope I did not offend you in any way. Clearly, you had to stop the attack immediately, it was an emergency situation, and you did what was necessary under the circumstances. I appreciate your explanation. I also agree with your above recommendation that in less dangerous situations, hold a bird up in the air so he knows that you can neutralize his attack, but just to clarify, as long as his weight is not being supported by his neck.

--April

Not offended at all. Sometimes when a person states things you forget that you audience can't crawl inside your head and see all the details that explain so much. Writing late at night doesn't help that problem either!
lau.gif
Most people I have found are intimidated by animals because they do not understand the counter measures that can defeat them. Sometimes it is just attitude. Little Shetland ponies can boss around 16 hand horses. by mostly attitude. That and they are at the perfect height to bite really tender parts.
lol.png
 
Hi Penny Hen,
I assumed that something serious had happened for you to handle your gander in that manner, which is why I was careful to say that I did not believe that your intent was to be cruel, and that people certainly have the right to defend themselves against large aggressive animals. And I did not know that you were a novice with poultry. The reason that I was concerned was because your recommendation was in response to Aunt Kat's post. She was the one that I was calling the nervous novice, because that is what she admitted to being. She was posting that she had three sweet young toms, but she was nervous that as they grew they might become aggressive. These were not birds that were currently aggressive, or that she had any reason to believe that they would become aggressive. She was just inexperienced at handling turkeys, and she was anxious about how they would act in the future.

Because there was no context to go along with your recommendation, I was concerned that Aunt Kat, or any poultry novice, might think that lifting and shaking a bird by the neck was a normal, first-option, appropriate method of discipline for any little peck, grab, or minor challenge, as opposed to a last option for self-defense against a truly vicious giant bird.

I hope I did not offend you in any way. Clearly, you had to stop the attack immediately, it was an emergency situation, and you did what was necessary under the circumstances. I appreciate your explanation. I also agree with your above recommendation that in less dangerous situations, hold a bird up in the air so he knows that you can neutralize his attack, but just to clarify, as long as his weight is not being supported by his neck.

--April


Not offended at all. Sometimes when a person states things you forget that you audience can't crawl inside your head and see all the details that explain so much. Writing late at night doesn't help that problem either!
lau.gif
Most people I have found are intimidated by animals because they do not understand the counter measures that can defeat them. Sometimes it is just attitude. Little Shetland ponies can boss around 16 hand horses. by mostly attitude. That and they are at the perfect height to bite really tender parts.
lol.png

Just want to say I think you are BOTH wonderful for trying to help me, and I have appreciation for what both were saying. I took the reply as Penny Hen telling me that IF I WERE IN SERIOUS TROUBLE AND BEING HURT, that is how to stop it. Lest I lay there with my face in a pile of turkey poo having my butt kicked. (cause I would LOL)
gig.gif
And I appreciate that Sydney Acres spoke up at the misunderstanding because .....after all........I am the person who cannot attend animal auctions simply because it tears me up to see animals handled so roughly. I wouldn't be able to do it anyhow, but thumbs up for speaking up when you thought something wasn't right. All I can say is it does my heart good to see good people.
thumbsup.gif


I certainly am the nervous novice and that is nicer than what some other farmers call me....LOL!!! I am spending some time out there carefully watching the behavior. The very large one is hissing/spitting at me and drumming, which I understand is mating behavior. The smaller of the two is not. When I enter the pen, they back up a little and have not yet charged me. HOWEVER, when they are in the outdoor run, the big one is trying to start junk with the other animals. If there was not a good fencing in between the big Tom and my pig and goats, I am sad to say he would be making minced meat of them. Especially poor Hamlett (pig) it seems. He was charging the female and "yet to be determined" as well when they were in the pen. This has me considering butchering him before things do get any more progressed and I do end up with an issue of other animals/ my kids being hurt by him. And honestly, since I don't seem to have it in me to get tough, even when called for, it may be in my best interest to nip the problem in the butt before it goes too far. Have had issues with seriously nasty roosters before, and then always feel bad when it comes to HAVING TO put them down AFTER someone has been hurt, even me. Makes me sad, but "MY GUT" is telling me things are about to go very wrong for me and the big dude, and it's going to be worse and VERY UGLY to the point where I lose control of the situation.

As for the smaller of the two, he isn't doing anything to the other animals or me, but is certainly ready to start scrappin with the big turkey I think. He is making a trill noise/ screech when they are gobbling together, and in the pen he was following the big one around, right up his butt, in circle, like "YOU WANNA PIECE OF ME???". Was thinking I would watch him a little longer before deciding if he would be a threat to anyone else here. He seems more docile and not a problem for anyone but the big guy. I don't feel in my gut he is a mean one, just sick of the big one's crap!

Any thoughts on this? Opinions welcomed. And Thanks a bunch again! YOU GUYS ROCK!!!
 
How do you know an egg is stuck?
She is standing still and has been all day I can tell she is pooping in the same spot and she let me touch her all over and I cannot find anything wrong with her. She is also just old enough to start laying. It has to be it, she was having problems the other day also but when I picked her up I heard a gurgling gush out of her. But she is back to standing still looking like she is going to drop dead.
 

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