What Causes Partial Or Complete Missing Toes?

[Patchesnposies]

My last hatch was 2 dozen Birchen Marans eggs from MalapineFarm. They were big, beautiful, dark eggs and despite having to travel from WV to NM, of the ones that started to develop (about 12 out of the 24 + an extra 4) only 1 was a quitter and all but 4 made it all the way to the end and then either pipped and died or died before pipping.

I know what the problem was....ME, actually. I was messing with the humidity because we are SO incredibly dry here in the southwest that all of my previous hatches had trouble with being sticky at hatch.

I upped the humidity too much during the developmental days and they drowned at hatch, I am fairly positive.

Besides that, I noticed when I opened them up to do my egg-topsy that a few of them had deformed feet, they either had a partial outer toe or a completely missing outer toe.

I am wondering if it was from having the humidity too high during development.

The chicks that hatched were huge and gorgeous and are growing rapidly. They seem to be as healthy as can be. Does anyone out there know why or how this happens?

I plan to incubate some more of Malapinefarm's eggs next month, because they are some of the prettiest chicks I have ever hatched out.

Here is a pic of one of my babies:

And another pretty bird:

 

[skeeter9]

Very cute chics!!!

Deformed feet can be caused by several things. Genetics, breeder health, incubating conditions. . . . I believe the University of Missouri has a nice chart for troubleshooting hatching issues. You might find it interesting to go through the chart.

 

[blackdotte]

What you are describing is a genetic defect called Brachydactyly, it is caused by an autosomal dominant gene. You have it because the supplier bred from defected stock. It is a condition which is commoner in feather footed breeds.
The chicks shown are not Birchen coloured, and do not even appear to be Marans
David

 

[Freebird1st]

Quote:
Thanks for your frank response David.
I tend to agree with you.
I had a terrible hatch with the same eggs.
The eggs were absolutely beautiful but turned out to be a real disappointment for me.
I don't have time to go into the specifics right now but I received 12 eggs and only had 3 to develope. 1 chick died in the shell about the 19th or 20th day (before pipping the air sac). 2 eggs hatched. One looks excactly like the yellow chick in Patches' pic, even has the single dark feather in the wing. I thought this chick was born with spraddle leg and could see no reason for it. Also, the toes on his feet were bent. We made a "shoe" for the foot and bandaided the legs together for spraddle leg. After a day or two we realized there was a more serious problem. This chick is crippled with a defect. We have him up but his rear toe on the left foot is formed forward and will not flex to the rear position as it should. The rear toe on the other foot is fine but his inside digit wants to turn under the center toe. His hip appears to throw his right leg out to one side badly and his knee joint doesn't want to support him unless held straight out.
The other chick is black and looks much like my cuckoo marans in the first week but I can tell he won't be barred.
I still have the other 9 eggs that didn't hatch in the fridge and will do an eggtopsy on them as soon as I can find the time.
I will try to post pics soon.
These were incubated with wyandottes at the same time which had none of the above problems even though they were handled so roughly by the mail service that some were scrambled, one had a broke air sac, and one was even broken. My wyandottes had a 50% hatch rate and are fine. So I don't think Patchesnposies problems had much if anything to do with humidity.
Patchesnposies' hatch rate of 4 out 28 is about the same as my 2 out of 12. Not too good.
I would like to hear from others who have tried to hatch the Malapinefarms eggs.

 

[Patchesnposies]

Freebird1st, I can't thank you enough for posting your hatch results from Malapinefarm eggs.

It sounds like my humidity issues had nothing to do with my chicks dying in the shell and the deformed feet.

Would you please post your pictures to this thread? Or, email them to me in a private message? I'd hate to miss seeing them.

Did you contact Steve and let him know? I am going to send him a link to this thread and tell him it looks like he has a problem.

I was going to try again, believing the issue was my own, and am going to have to opt out now.

These eggs are a bit pricey to end up with dead, deformed or sick birds.

Again, thanks for taking the time to post about your experience.

And another heartfelt thanks to Blackdotte for taking the time to post about Brachydactyly.

God Bless!

 

[Freebird1st]

Quick update;
My "egg-topsy" showed NO sign of any developement in 9 eggs.
I screened the eggs through a micron filter using a rinse method hoping to find some indication of fertilization. Every egg appeared exactly the same as compared to a store bought non-fertile egg.
Still unable to upload pics at this time.

 

[malapinefarm]

I read this post and needed a couple days to filter through it as I felt like I had been hit by a tornado. First off I appologise for a bad hatch. Ive felt shocked because I have hatched numerous of these Marans chicks with decent results. Took me a few hatches to get things down but after that I had really good results and no feet defects. I have also had others hatch here locally and through other out of state sales and up until now the biggest complaint was chicks having problems pipping all the way out. What causes this I dont know unless it has to do with the size of the chicks as most Marans eggs are like duck eggs. Hatchings are also more difficult with Marans eggs and I have found this out through my own personal expaerience and many other Marans owners I have talked to. The few I have heard from with low hatch rates I have tried to work something out price wise and with Patchesnposies I was going to send a dozen of my Americana/Marans cross which I did to get some feathered foot Americanas and I was going to send these at no cost. I do not know of any physical defects my birds have and I have been honest in my postings for these eggs. I have 100% packed very well and only had 1 egg ever reported to have been damaged. What happens to these eggs in shipment is beyond anyones control. Constant jolting in shipment and X-raying can have a major effect on hatchings. There is no sure way of knowing what happened and incubation is one cause that can be a factor. I am not saying thats what caused this but I do know my birds are healthy, I take great care of them cleaning there houses out every week. I only have 5-6 hens with my rooster. They have plenty of room to roam in there runs...I feed them quality feed and change there water out twice dailey and they are protected from predetors. I assure you I will not sell anymore eggs and if I tried I am sure I would be slammed on this site. I felt a need to respond and respond only with hionest facts. I take great offense with Blackdottes Posts...{What you are describing is a genetic defect called Brachydactyly, it is caused by an autosomal dominant gene. You have it because the supplier bred from defected stock. It is a condition which is commoner in feather footed breeds.
The chicks shown are not Birchen coloured, and do not even appear to be Marans
David}
The reason I take offense is the fact that when I ran my posts for the eggs I DID NOT post them as Birchen Marans... I posted them as Blue Birchen Marans with the Rooster being Blue Birchen Marans and the Hens being Blue Marans. I never ran them as Birchen Marans and for you to state that the chicks are not Birchen Color and do not even look like Marans chicks is a Untrue Slam. I provided pictures of my Rooster and Hens and a Picture of the eggs in every posting. They are Marans...The Rooster is Blue Birchen and the Hens are Blue. Once again I appologise for a bad hatch and I will take your advice and not sell any more of my eggs Nor will I visit this Site again.
Steve

 

[pdsavage]

As with all shipped eggs we take a chance,i have had my shipped eggs hatch better for others then they do for me....
As for getting shipped eggs that dont do well its either rough handling in shipping or my fault....
I mess with the incubator to much and have learned the hard way to get it set right and leave it alone....
malapinefarm im sorry you are feeling attacked on here,it does happen at times and i have learnde to ignore it and enjoy the rest of the site....

 

[Patchesnposies]

Well, I am absolutely miserable about this whole thread. I hate that Steve feels attacked and doesn't want to sell his eggs on the BYC forum anymore. I only wanted to know if anyone had ever had problems with chicks hatching out with toe deformities. After reading Blackdotte's post I wrote to him privately:

Why do you think that these babies aren't Maran's at all?

This is very interesting and I am very curious to learn all I can. The ones that died in the shell almost all had toe defects.

The reason that I thought it might be something we are doing wrong in the incubation process, is that I hatched some Spitzhauben eggs from a totally different person and one little chick had a weak foot (it has straightened out now) and one had a partially missing toe.

Any information you can share with me, as a total newbie, is greatly appreciated!

And this was his reply:

Just from the original description you gave & the photo. However with the additional information I think it is likely you have 2 Splash coloured birds. A solid Blue X Blue Birchen can give Splash. It is not a good mating to cross an E, Extended Black based bird (the Blue) with an ER, Birchen bird as the resulting chicks are then just a cross between the two,and will not breed true.
The photos were to clear but one,at least, looked to not have a single comb.

Steve from Malapinefarm never said these were anything but a Maran to Maran cross. Still Marans! He was always honest in his posted ad and personal emails. Never a misrepresentation. I have no desire to breed Marans, so their not breeding "true to standard' for Blue or Birchen doesn't matter to me. I do however, love a multicolored egg basket.

The babies that I hatched out from his eggs are beautiful and full of personality. I have enjoyed them so much that I still have them on my counter in the kitchen, in a brooder simply because they are so sweet and friendly. My children play with them all the time and they yell for us when we aren't in the room.

They have been with two little orphaned quail that someone brought me and the four of them and the two little quail are adorable together.

I feel that I am to blame for the way this thread went and I apologize to everyone.

Especially to Steve.

 

[Freebird1st]

I just got this email and it's way past my bedtime so it will be short.
Steve, I have tried not to jump to any conclusions and I hope that you will work towards the same end.
If there is a problem of any kind it matters only that we all do the best we can to get past it. Unexpected things can happen to any of us at any time and often what seems so apparent can turn in a completely different direction and have a totally different end to the matter.
I have not even contacted you yet because I felt I should gather more information first. That is all I have attempted to do. I do have more info but not the time to go into right now.
All that matters to me is to know that everyone will attempt to treat each other with honesty and respect.
Please do not feel offended. You did an excellent job of representing your eggs and an excellent job of packaging. They arrived safely and were absolutely beautiful in color, everything the pics showed them to be. You didn't mislead anyone on the breed mix and I ordered them for the color.
A lot of positive to be said and your response is to make certain no one ever feels cheated but please do not stop frequenting the site. I believe you have been honest and I wish I would have used common sense before openly discussing these matters.
GOT to run for now...niters all.