What is a "treat" to you?

[Fallenone05]

My sister, who keeps reptiles, breeds Dubia roaches and tells me that they have a much superior protein to fat ratio.

My chickens love them.

They are also willing to forage in the bedding for a handful of pellets.

I've always wanted to get into breeding crickets and other insects that are "gut loaded" for chickens. I imagine dubia roaches on a really good diet would be a great source of all sorts of goodies for chickens.

 

[Kiki]

Maybe this is a dumb question, but asking anyway because I am a newbie.

I have read SO MANY THINGS about what to feed my chickens, however vast majority says to make sure the "treats" you give your chickens does not exceed 10% of their overall diet for any given day. Yet, in so many posts, I see lots of people with seemingly small flocks offering whole cabbages, whole watermelons, large trays of salad materials and fruit etc etc etc... So it just seems contradictory?

Do veggies/fruit/sprouts/cabbage/lettuce etc not count as "treats?"

Yes, they count as treats.
Anything that you feed besides the crumbled or pelleted age appropriate poultry feed is a treat.

 

[BrandonsBirbs]

As @Percheron chick says above, anything not a complete feed is a TREAT. It doesn't matter if its considered "healthy" in moderation or not - its a potential source of dietary imbalance.

Why 10% by weight? First, its a "thumb rule", it doesn't fit every example perfectly, nor is it intended to. Its basic guidance applicable to the majority of situations. Why weight? Because that's how chicken feed is measured. It helps us compare ingredients on equal basis.

Now, what happens at the extremes?

Dried BSFL - very popular treat. Its a very good complete protein source. That can't be bad, right? Its also a HIGHLY concentrated fat source, and a small increase in protein isn't nearly so beneficial as a large increase in fat is potentially detrimental. The normal range of recommends for a chicken's diet is protein between 16-20%. The normal range of recommends for fat, however, is about 2.5-5.0%. 10g of dried BSFL may raise the total protein of a chickens diet from 16% to around 19% - that's good, but it likely doubles the fat in the diet, from 3% to 6% or higher...

Something similar occurs with BOSS, another nutrient dense, low moisture source.

Watermelon and cucumbers - Very popular summertime treat, particularly chilled. Its almost all water (potentially over 96%). After accounting for that, it takes a LOT of watermelon,cuke, honeydew, etc to potentially imbalance a diet.

The middle ground, what the "thumb rule" best fits, is moderate moisture fruits and veggies (apples, grapes, carrots, greens) and dried grains (which are nutrient poor, in spite of low moisture levels).

The thumb rule is also intended to minimize the impact of anti-nutritional factors which may be present in the treat - tannins, lignins, trypsin inhibitors, beta glucans, oxalates, and a host of others.

Yes, they count as treats.
Anything that you feed besides the crumbled or pelleted age appropriate poultry feed is a treat.

I understand the fact that anything other than standard feed counts as a treat, however where do I find the information on what difference a treat could cause to a bird's diet?

For example, I regularly feed my birdies cucumber/cuke leaves, I can imagine they're not nutritional dense enough to make a difference, but how can I know for sure?

 

[Kiki]

I understand the fact that anything other than standard feed counts as a treat, however where do I find the information on what difference a treat could cause to a bird's diet?

For example, I regularly feed my birdies cucumber/cuke leaves, I can imagine they're not nutritional dense enough to make a difference, but how can I know for sure?

Nothing is for sure but I would guess you could find out for sure if you hired an animal nutritionist to analyze exactly what you feed.

 

[3KillerBs]

I've always wanted to get into breeding crickets and other insects that are "gut loaded" for chickens. I imagine dubia roaches on a really good diet would be a great source of all sorts of goodies for chickens.

She has a special feed mix she makes up for them, but my mini-colony live on all-flock feed with random fruit for hydration -- usually the good parts of something that was going bad.

IIRC, in the wild they're mainly fruit eaters but, as she often says, they're roaches -- they're not picky.

 

[Fallenone05]

She has a special feed mix she makes up for them, but my mini-colony live on all-flock feed with random fruit for hydration -- usually the good parts of something that was going bad.

IIRC, in the wild they're mainly fruit eaters but, as she often says, they're roaches -- they're not picky.

With crickets, when I had a leopard gecko, they make some vitamin feed mix that's specific to gut load for whatever your certain critter needs. I wonder if a diet like that would benefit a chicken, or if the feed pellets are doing their thing. Crickets also aren't very picky and will actually eat your lizards, and each other, if they're not fed or watered in the enclosure if they get away from the lizard.

Bugs, man.

 

[3KillerBs]

With crickets, when I had a leopard gecko, they make some vitamin feed mix that's specific to gut load for whatever your certain critter needs. I wonder if a diet like that would benefit a chicken, or if the feed pellets are doing their thing. Crickets also aren't very picky and will actually eat your lizards, and each other, if they're not fed or watered in the enclosure if they get away from the lizard.

Bugs, man.

I don't know.

I just feed mine all-flock because it's handier than making up a batch of the mix my sister uses. I'm just keeping mine alive until I feed them -- a few per bird every week or so.

However, they do keep breeding so I must be doing something right.

 

[U_Stormcrow]

I understand the fact that anything other than standard feed counts as a treat, however where do I find the information on what difference a treat could cause to a bird's diet?

For example, I regularly feed my birdies cucumber/cuke leaves, I can imagine they're not nutritional dense enough to make a difference, but how can I know for sure?

Two part answer. Maybe three part.

One) You have to understand what your bird's target diet is.
Two) You have to know what its getting from its complete feed
Three) you need a source of reliable (or at least consistent) information about the nutritional value of whatever you are feeding as a treat. Then you can calculate potential effects.

I start at Feedipedia.org. NOT because its right, but because its robust. Wait, its not right??? NOPE. Nor does it claim to be. Feedipedia uses averages* based on testing - and the problem with averages is that they tell you nothing about the individual ingredient you hold in your hand. But its free, its consistent, and its a start.

So, going to my favorite first source, and putting in "Cucumber", I find it has no information for that as a feed ingredient in its standard format tables. But it does mention this, "Performance and economical efficiency of growing New Zealand White rabbit fed cucumber (Cucumis sativus l.) vines straw without or with some feed additives under Egyptian conditions" That could be interesting. (Google search turns up nothing but an abstract. BAH!). There is also this, "Effects of replacing clover hay by cucumber (Cucumis sativus L.) vines straw without or with natuzyme or prebiotic" (same study, different author listed first - again, no hits).

Next, you can look to the USDA. Raw Cucumber. 95% water. 0.65% protein, 0.1% fat, 0.5% fiber. Not a significant source of calcium (16mg / 100g), not a useful source of pohosphorus (chickens can't use phytate, meaning plant-based, phosphorus). Some potassium, a tiny bit of selenium (micro grams, but chickens don't need much), and because the protein is so low, you can ignore the amino acid balance of that protein.
Basically, its flavored water with some fiber, some carbs, and some trace salts.

After that, its Google Scholar and start reading. (Mostly articles about using chicken manure/compost to feed cucumbers)

Simple. This is how I'm teaching myself.




*Feedipedia is better than many in that, after publishing the average, they also publish the max, the minimum, the standard deviation, and the number of samples tested - so if you see "6" or "3" or "1" for samples tested, you know the data isn't very reliable. And if you see an SD of 7.6 (look at Calcium), you know the presence of that component is highly variable.

 

[SandyRiverChick]

When I hear the word "Treats," I think of how in my first year or 2 of chicken keeping I thought I should feed my flock of wide variety of anything a chicken would eat. Let's try cheerios, how about some pasta salad. It was ridiculous, they are farm animals, they don't need or want to stroll the aisles of Costco like us humans who are so easily bored. In fact I'm certain that I didn't help their overall health and I attracted rats even though I had 2 acres. Now a treat is scratch. Just a few handfuls every couple days. They treat themselves to all of the seeds and bugs they find while foraging and if they're interested in veggies they can pick them out of my compost pile. They don't also need my left over tater tots. And I don't mean to insult anyone but how do you know that chicken's get bored? I personally think that is a confinement issue that needs to be addressed not relative to food. Isn't playing with food for toddler's?

 

[Alagirl]

Two part answer. Maybe three part.

One) You have to understand what your bird's target diet is.
Two) You have to know what its getting from its complete feed
Three) you need a source of reliable (or at least consistent) information about the nutritional value of whatever you are feeding as a treat. Then you can calculate potential effects.

I start at Feedipedia.org. NOT because its right, but because its robust. Wait, its not right??? NOPE. Nor does it claim to be. Feedipedia uses averages* based on testing - and the problem with averages is that they tell you nothing about the individual ingredient you hold in your hand. But its free, its consistent, and its a start.

So, going to my favorite first source, and putting in "Cucumber", I find it has no information for that as a feed ingredient in its standard format tables. But it does mention this, "Performance and economical efficiency of growing New Zealand White rabbit fed cucumber (Cucumis sativus l.) vines straw without or with some feed additives under Egyptian conditions" That could be interesting. (Google search turns up nothing but an abstract. BAH!). There is also this, "Effects of replacing clover hay by cucumber (Cucumis sativus L.) vines straw without or with natuzyme or prebiotic" (same study, different author listed first - again, no hits).

Next, you can look to the USDA. Raw Cucumber. 95% water. 0.65% protein, 0.1% fat, 0.5% fiber. Not a significant source of calcium (16mg / 100g), not a useful source of pohosphorus (chickens can't use phytate, meaning plant-based, phosphorus). Some potassium, a tiny bit of selenium (micro grams, but chickens don't need much), and because the protein is so low, you can ignore the amino acid balance of that protein.
Basically, its flavored water with some fiber, some carbs, and some trace salts.

After that, its Google Scholar and start reading. (Mostly articles about using chicken manure/compost to feed cucumbers)

Simple. This is how I'm teaching myself.




*Feedipedia is better than many in that, after publishing the average, they also publish the max, the minimum, the standard deviation, and the number of samples tested - so if you see "6" or "3" or "1" for samples tested, you know the data isn't very reliable. And if you see an SD of 7.6 (look at Calcium), you know the presence of that component is highly variable.

I think one might need to have a comprehensive soil test as well if one goes down into the digits behind the comma for homegrown feed.
what soil the plants grow in is also important, not just the species-specific averages.

if your soil does not contain X or Y, the plant can't absorb it either.