what is this on my game-cam?

[Lightfoote]

We'll (politely) agree to disagree, then - with no offense intended or taken, and the stipulation that this had made for a very interesting and lively topic of discussion. I'm looking forward to some concrete findings by 'dinahmoe', whether they support or dispel my assertions.

Lightfoote

 

[dretd]

Quote:
100% agree

Quote:
I printed out the photo and did measurements and using a generous 16" for the crow that is really turned slightly sideways, the mystery animal is about 40" long including tail and stands 12 " high. The measurements could be off because they aren't in the exact plane, but it is really close.

Quote:
Also 100% agree, and more than that, the legs, carpus and paws of a cougar (esp juvinile) are very large and beefy and the ones in the photos are very small I estimate 1.2 inches in diameter at the carpus (wrist).

Quote:
I don't know if foxes mark like other canids, I will take your word for it. But, here is where I look at the photo differently. I do not think that it is lifting its leg to mark. Rather I thought it was lifting its leg high to the body to step over or on an object obscured by the leaf, which is a stealthy feline thing to do.

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I think what dissuedes me from a fox is that the head appears blunted in one photo and the tail looks decidedly feline to me, I really see contours and lateral tip curves that are feline, not canine.

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I think it would be really exciting if it really were a cougar and tried to convince myself it was a youngster, but I still can't get around the small lithe size. Weighing the odds of a cougar cub vs large ferral cat I have to go with the more logical of the two although cannot rule that out with 100% confidence. I am an evidenced-based gal and when I see a Unidentified Flying Object, I think it must be a plane or other man-made object with optical llusions at play since I've seen those, not it must be from outer space since there's no evidence to back up the claim.

I hope the OP can get more photos, a better scale reference or physical evidence like hair, scat or footprints to lay this mystery to rest.

 

[EMaker]

Quote:
Not true. Most of the time there isn't DNA. If circumstances are optimal, there are footprints, or scat. In New England, with our humidity, frozen winters, and forestation, prints and scat don't last long. Another way to identify likely cougar presence is looking at kill carcasses. Cougars and other feline predators have an identifiable pattern when taking down prey, as do the canid predators. Aside from those points, I think it unwise to make assumptions about the ability of witnesses to identify a cougar. Cougars are not difficult to identify by sight, and seldom does any normal person with reasonable vision mistake a cougar for someone's housecat, or even a bobcat. Most people know what they're seeing, it's that authorities don't wish to cause public concern without a proof positive, which requires the dead cougar (as in CT) or an incredibly clear, unmistakeable photo. In my opinion, that is most certainly not a grey fox on this cam. By the way, your smug comment about the "experts" here is uncalled for; don't assume there aren't more educated naturalists/outdoorsmen on this forum. I feel certain there are indeed.

 

[dinahmoe]

well,nothing interesting on the camera today.all i saw was a racoon,possum and more crows.reset it and put some sand down around the camera in hopes of some tracks.
we will see.

no matter what it is,it is interesting to see all the different thoughts .it is difficult with a photo because of dimensions,color,etc.thats why i wanted you guys to chime in.so please everyone ,play nice.

 

[EMaker]

Quote:
100% agree

Quote:
I printed out the photo and did measurements and using a generous 16" for the crow that is really turned slightly sideways, the mystery animal is about 40" long including tail and stands 12 " high. The measurements could be off because they aren't in the exact plane, but it is really close.

Quote:
Also 100% agree, and more than that, the legs, carpus and paws of a cougar (esp juvinile) are very large and beefy and the ones in the photos are very small I estimate 1.2 inches in diameter at the carpus (wrist).

Quote:
I don't know if foxes mark like other canids, I will take your word for it. But, here is where I look at the photo differently. I do not think that it is lifting its leg to mark. Rather I thought it was lifting its leg high to the body to step over or on an object obscured by the leaf, which is a stealthy feline thing to do.
Quote:
I think what dissuedes me from a fox is that the head appears blunted in one photo and the tail looks decidedly feline to me, I really see contours and lateral tip curves that are feline, not canine.

Quote:
I think it would be really exciting if it really were a cougar and tried to convince myself it was a youngster, but I still can't get around the small lithe size. Weighing the odds of a cougar cub vs large ferral cat I have to go with the more logical of the two although cannot rule that out with 100% confidence. I am an evidenced-based gal and when I see a Unidentified Flying Object, I think it must be a plane or other man-made object with optical llusions at play since I've seen those, not it must be from outer space since there's no evidence to back up the claim.

I hope the OP can get more photos, a better scale reference or physical evidence like hair, scat or footprints to lay this mystery to rest.

I agree that this animal isn't lifting it's leg to mark. Yes, a male fox would do so, but a feline would not. I agree with you that this animal is instead retracting it's leg. Regarding size, a "teenage" (juvenile, not a cub) feline does not have a stocky head and in fact their heads and bodies are rather lean and lithe. It is also a mistake to compare the heft of a zoo animal, one who is fed well and parasite-free, with an animal of wild habitat.

 

[dretd]

Quote:
That is why I have specifically measured as closer to the carpal area as possible. In my experience in general when animals beef up, their bodies get tick-like, but there is little fat stored in the extremities and I think it is a more reliable place to measure. Seen plenty of morbidly obese cats weighing 25 lbs that should weigh 7-10 and every one has tiny paws and slender wrists then, pop, a tick.

I have only been up close to two juvinile cougars and yes they were at a zoo (close enough to pet them--here kitty,kitty, purr...) they had very large paws and wrists so that is what I am basing my information on. I don't think they were particularly over weight but obviously cared for. Saw a commercial cougar named Rosie and she was fairly svelt but again had really big paws and lower legs. Very cool critters as long as they are not stalking you or yours.

 

[grawg]

I'm still in the grey fox camp myself. One thing to keep in mind when saying it's not a "fox" is that a red fox (vulpes vulpes) and a grey fox (Urocyon cinereoargenteus) are quite different from each other.

Anyhow, here are some nightcam pics I found of grey foxes:

This seems to show how catlike grays can appear:

This thread needs a poll!

 

[dinahmoe]

wow,that last picture looks alot like it.does the size match up?

a poll would be fun-feel free to make one somebody.

 

[mhwc56]

WHATEVER it is ...i would recommend that you have wildlife services come out and trap and relocate it. Whether fox or panther or chupacabra (LOL) it surely would do your poultry no good deed given the opportunity. Then ,too,with Rabies being an issue for fox ..and big cats being just that...and small children around i'd seriously work on getting it relocated.

 

[kareninthesun]

Quote:
grey foxes are interesting. The ones here have longer legs, and their jaws seem longer. Skinnier, they look like God got bored and took leftovers to create something different. Maybe if you can tempt it with a meal, and around the source of food, have the ground free and damp enough for a print. Or perhaps have multiple feeding stations so that it stays long enough to empty its bowls while eatting, and providing more pictures while it stays put? Or perhaps hanging a meal from a tree branch with the camera close by, so that the only way the critter could get to it would be by climbing? Greys are great tree climbers. They make all sorts of odd sounds you wouldn't expect, hissing like a cat, bark like, growls.