Whole buncha questions

[Hamstermann]

Okay, so I'm new to chickens and I want to design my own tractor that can also meet the girls' needs in our cold, snowy winters. The thought is we'll use one side of a 14x23 foot section of the yard for the chickens and let them eat the grass and weeds and till up the spoil, then use the DLM to generate compost. Then in the late fall we'll move them to the other side of the yard, till in the DLM compost and let it decompose all winter before gardening there next year. the following fall we'll switch them back and use the 2nd section of the yard as garden.

My first flock is 5 hens (buff orpington, lavernder orpington, easter egger, silver laced wyandotte, and a gold sexlink) and are only about a week and a half or two weeks old right now. 5 is all we're allowed to have for our lot size and I'm not the "What they don't know won't hurt them" type so 5 is all we'll have and I don't need to worry about chicken math as much.

I want a 5x5 or 4x5 coop with a lean-to style roof where the high side of the roof has a foot tall by 5 feet wide section of 1/2" hardware cloth for ventilation. I know each bird needs at least 4 square feet of floor space in the henhouse (not counting nests), 1/4 of a nest, 9-12 inches of roost, and 1 square foot of ventilation. I want to do the deep litter method in the run and the coop.

Starting from the ground up:
The Run
I want the run to be 5x10, with 5 feet of the length being under the coop, which I'll have 2-3 feet above ground. I'll use some lumber on its side to contain the litter in the run (2x6, 2x8, 2x10, something like that). I'm thinking of having the run and coop covered by the same lean-to style roof. I'll use hardware cloth, not chicken wire, and the widest size I can find is 3 feet by 25 foot rolls. I'm also thinking of doing the 3-inch PVC food (and maybe water) DIY dispensers, put through a drilled hole in the bottom of the run wall under the coop so the chickens can eat and drink in the shade and I can refill them from outside the coop and run.

• It seems like most people frame their runs with the lumber's short 1.5 inch side facing the ground instead of the flat 3.5" side like when you'd frame a house. Is that sturdy enough?
• I was thinking of doing that with half-lap joints to stiffen it up a bit and try to keep things light. has anyone tried this method? if so, will gluing the joint with tightbond 3 and then reinforcing it with screws to hold the two halves together be enough to overcome wood movement working the joint loose?
• how far apart can I put the vertical boards in the walls before things get shaky/flimsy?
• If I make the run tall enough for me to walk into (I'm 6' 3"), is that going to make it too heavy to move?
• If I make the run only as high as the bottom of the coop (2-3 feet), how hard is that going to make adding litter/bedding and retrieving chickens and eggs? I'm planning to have the coop covered either way, but if I have a short coop, I will keep the lean-to roof to just the coop and I'll just do a hardware cloth-stapled-to-a-wood-frame-on-hinges lid.
• With a coop on one end and only hardware cloth mesh walls on the other, will my tractor be top-heavy and tip easily?
• If I choose to leave the wheels on the tractor all the time, how much clearance can I safely put between the ground and the bottom of the run? the only predators we're likely to have are neighborhood cats and dogs. The neighbors' outdoor cats will take care of any rodents or snakes and I live in the city so we won't get wolves or raccoons or anything like that.
• My yard is uneven lawn so a heavy coop and run may sink into the ground an be hard to move without wheels, but if I do use wheels, what's the best way to make sure I can move it in any direction? Seems like captive wheels will only let it go forward or reverse, not necessarily turn easily.

The Coop

• I'm planning to line the floor with linoleum for easy cleanup and use the deep litter method. I want to leave enough room between the floor and nests to let the bedding get as deep as it needs to without the nests being tempting for sleeping if chickens choose not to use a perch/roost. How deep does the litter typically get if I only clean it out once or twice a year but want to add enough for it to not get stinky?
• I asked in another thread how far above the bottom of the laying nests the perches need to be and someone said something along the lines of "far enough that the chickens sleep there instead of in the nests." is there a recommended distance for that?
• If I put the 2x4 or 2x2 roosting bars at the same height as the nesting box roof and perpendicular to the wall that has the boxes, will poop still get into the nesting boxes? should I put them paralell to the nesting box wall but on the opposite side of the coop so their tails are nowhere near the boxes?
• I'm planning for the east wall (roughly 5 feet wide by however tall it needs to be to accommodate DLM, nests, and headroom for perches still being below ceiling ventilation) to be all clean-out door, hinged on the bottom with something like a piano hinge or a couple of heavy-duty gate hinges. Am I going to regret having it pivot down to open instead of up? What are the pros and cons of each pivot direction? Might also put a window in the door, using plexiglass.
• The walls of the coop will be T1-11 stapled/nailed to a 2x2 or 2x4 frame on the inside and trimmed with 1x2 or 1x3 on the outside
• The south wall will have the nesting box attached to it. Above the boxes will be a wire-mesh section of wall with a frame inset into it that holds plexiglass. I can open it for ventilation in the summer and close it for wind-blocking in the winter but still allow light in.
• The north wall will have one of those automatic chicken doors that leads to the run and opens with the sunrise and closes with the sunset. I'll make sure to get one that senses when a chicken is in the doorway so no one gets decapitated. We'll hang the ramp off the outside of this wall with eye hooks so it can be removed easily. If I make the ramp be a wood frame with wire mesh in the middle so there's less scrubbing poop off of it, will the mesh hurt the chickens feet?
• I'm currently thinking corrugated plastic or metal for roofing, but I worry about the noise - is it loud enough to bother neighbors whose house will only be roughly 15-30 feet away? should I go for shingles for that reason?

The nest boxes
I'm thinking of framing them with 2x4 or 1x4 and then t1-11 nailed/stapled on the inside. I'll have the front of the box open instead of the top to avoid scaring the chickens by reaching in from above. I'm thinking to build 4 boxes but have the end ones be used for food and water instead of nesting. that should keep them above the main bedding area so they hopefully stay cleaner, and let me refresh them from outside the coop, as well as letting me plug in a heated waterer in the fall and winter.

Technology
I'll plug the water heater into one of those cold-activated plugs so it only warms when needed.
I'd like to use solar-powered Wyze cameras to check on the chickens in the run and coop, as well as to collect evidence if a neighbors' pet decides to come cause trouble.
We won't bother with lights to encourage laying in the winter - the chickens can take a break if they want.
We probably won't worry about a heat lamp either since I'm hoping the decomposing litter should generate enough heat for them in the winter.

• How do you manage cords in your coops and runs so that the chickens don't peck into the wires and the rain and snow don't come in through the penetrations for the cords

What other advice can you think of to give?

 

[3KillerBs]

Okay, so I'm new to chickens and I want to design my own tractor that can also meet the girls' needs in our cold, snowy winters.

You’ve set yourself a hard task with this one. Tractors, as lightweight, portable structures, are harder to make suitable for a severe winter climate than a permanent setup is. Not impossible, but harder.

The thought is we'll use one side of a 14x23 foot section of the yard for the chickens and let them eat the grass and weeds and till up the spoil, then use the DLM to generate compost. Then in the late fall we'll move them to the other side of the yard, till in the DLM compost and let it decompose all winter before gardening there next year. the following fall we'll switch them back and use the 2nd section of the yard as garden.

Could you sketch up a plan for the sections and show us photos of the proposed location?

I want a 5x5 or 4x5 coop with a lean-to style roof where the high side of the roof has a foot tall by 5 feet wide section of 1/2" hardware cloth for ventilation. I know each bird needs at least 4 square feet of floor space in the henhouse (not counting nests), 1/4 of a nest, 9-12 inches of roost, and 1 square foot of ventilation. I want to do the deep litter method in the run and the coop.

Lumber and sheet goods come in multiples of 4 feet, so using those dimensions saves both time and wasted money. 4x6 is easier to build with far fewer cuts than 4x5 or 5x5. The most common length for lumber is 8 feet, easily divided in half to get 2, 4-foot boards with no waste. Likewise a 12-foot board makes 2, 6-foot boards with no waste.

But each 5-foot board required means cutting 3 feet off an 8-foot board and discarding the 3-foot piece.

I want the run to be 5x10, with 5 feet of the length being under the coop, which I'll have 2-3 feet above ground. I'll use some lumber on its side to contain the litter in the run (2x6, 2x8, 2x10, something like that). I'm thinking of having the run and coop covered by the same lean-to style roof. I'll use hardware cloth, not chicken wire, and the widest size I can find is 3 feet by 25 foot rolls.

As I said in my initial post, though that meets the minimums you’ll find that 5 hens in that space look crowded. Also, you have to account for the space taken up by their feeder and waterer.

I can usually find 48” hardware cloth, which works with the aforementioned standard dimensions of lumber. You can see how it worked out for us here on my coop build thread: https://www.backyardchickens.com/threads/large-open-air-coop-in-central-nc.1443812/post-24730588

And how having an off dimension caused issues in this conversion: https://www.backyardchickens.com/th...der-conversion-rush-job.1467377/post-24453873

https://www.amazon.com/s?k=48+hardw...ix=48"+hard,aps,451&ref=nb_sb_ss_ts-doa-p_2_7 (We found our best deal at TSC last year, but they don't always have it).

• how far apart can I put the vertical boards in the walls before things get shaky/flimsy?
  

Tractors are always a tradeoff. If you use 2x2s instead of 2x4s you save weight and don’t need as much solidity, but you have a weaker structure. What kind of wind and snow loads can you expect?

Diagonal bracing will be important. The brooder conversion lacks any diagonals and it always racks when moved.

• If I make the run tall enough for me to walk into (I'm 6' 3"), is that going to make it too heavy to move?

Potentially. This is another argument for making the coop and run separate so that you can move them in pieces.

• If I make the run only as high as the bottom of the coop (2-3 feet), how hard is that going to make adding litter/bedding and retrieving chickens and eggs? I'm planning to have the coop covered either way, but if I have a short coop, I will keep the lean-to roof to just the coop and I'll just do a hardware cloth-stapled-to-a-wood-frame-on-hinges lid.

Very hard -- you’d have to make the entire thing as a lid you can lift. This would increase the weight while decreasing it’s ability to take snow load.

If you can make it tall enough to walk into you’ll save yourself a lot of trouble over the long term. Additionally, in a severe winter area you definitely want a roof on the run so that snow doesn’t trap them in the coop for months -- the alternative being that you shovel the snow out of the run after every storm.

• If I choose to leave the wheels on the tractor all the time, how much clearance can I safely put between the ground and the bottom of the run? the only predators we're likely to have are neighborhood cats and dogs. The neighbors' outdoor cats will take care of any rodents or snakes and I live in the city so we won't get wolves or raccoons or anything like that.
• My yard is uneven lawn so a heavy coop and run may sink into the ground an be hard to move without wheels, but if I do use wheels, what's the best way to make sure I can move it in any direction? Seems like captive wheels will only let it go forward or reverse, not necessarily turn easily.

First, you have more predators in the city than you think you have. Raccoons are nearly ubiquitous in US cities. Likewise coyotes. And MANY stray dogs. Would you leave an open can of food trash in that spot and expect to find it left entirely alone?

Second, I know that another poster has talked about using wheels on levers. Some people also have removable wheels that they only install when moving the tractor. How often do you intend to move it and will you have any additional human or mechanical assistance?

Third, one possibility for your situation would be to build your coop on a small trailer and put it inside or next to a portable run.

• I'm planning to line the floor with linoleum for easy cleanup and use the deep litter method. I want to leave enough room between the floor and nests to let the bedding get as deep as it needs to without the nests being tempting for sleeping if chickens choose not to use a perch/roost. How deep does the litter typically get if I only clean it out once or twice a year but want to add enough for it to not get stinky?

First, some definitions:

Deep Bedding: A dry, non-composting system where you keep adding bedding to the coop as it becomes soiled -- managing it by turning it as necessary (or getting the chickens to turn it for you) -- and clean it out only infrequently when the bedding has become both thoroughly soiled and piled up to the point of not being able to add more. Usually used above a floor in the coop but *can* be done in a covered run over dirt in a favorable climate.


Deep Litter: A moist (not wet, moist), system where the lower layers of material are actively composting while new, dry material is continually added to the top. *Can* be done on any floor surface but is most readily accomplished on a dirt floor because the dirt will seed the material with the beneficial composting organisms.


It’s *possible* to use Deep Litter in a raised coop, but very difficult. You probably want to aim for Deep Bedding. Here is my article on the subject: https://www.backyardchickens.com/articles/using-deep-bedding-in-a-small-coop.76343/

• I'm planning for the east wall (roughly 5 feet wide by however tall it needs to be to accommodate DLM, nests, and headroom for perches still being below ceiling ventilation) to be all clean-out door, hinged on the bottom with something like a piano hinge or a couple of heavy-duty gate hinges. Am I going to regret having it pivot down to open instead of up? What are the pros and cons of each pivot direction? Might also put a window in the door, using plexiglass.

Many people install their cleanout door so that they can get their wheelbarrow or garden cart directly under it. I think I’ve seen drop-down panels, which make that impossible -- though it’s not difficult to clean a coop with the cart next to the door instead of under it. The advantage to a drop down is that it gets the door out of your way without having to prop or brace it.

A top opening panel or a side opening panel would have to be fastened open to prevent it from falling on your head or from blowing closed while you are trying to work (bungies are helpful for side opening doors that want to blow closed).

• The south wall will have the nesting box attached to it. Above the boxes will be a wire-mesh section of wall with a frame inset into it that holds plexiglass. I can open it for ventilation in the summer and close it for wind-blocking in the winter but still allow light in.

Whatever you design for supplemental summer ventilation you still require 5 square feet of permanent, 24/7/365 ventilation for your 5 hens. This ventilation is best installed at the top level because heat and ammonia both rise.

• If I make the ramp be a wood frame with wire mesh in the middle so there's less scrubbing poop off of it, will the mesh hurt the chickens feet?

This won’t work because ½” hardware cloth is too small for the poop to drop through. An adult hen’s poop is at least golf-ball size and can be larger.

Wire won’t inherently hurt their feet, but they don’t like to walk on surfaces that aren’t solid.

• I'm currently thinking corrugated plastic or metal for roofing, but I worry about the noise - is it loud enough to bother neighbors whose house will only be roughly 15-30 feet away? should I go for shingles for that reason?

With adequate ventilation the roof really won’t have much effect on noise levels.

Metal roof is lightweight and easy to work with given the correct tools -- namely a cordless impact driver and self-tapping screws (ours is from the DeWalt 20v set).

@U_Stormcrow is very knowledgeable about roof installation.

The nest boxes

I'm thinking of framing them with 2x4 or 1x4 and then t1-11 nailed/stapled on the inside. I'll have the front of the box open instead of the top to avoid scaring the chickens by reaching in from above. I'm thinking to build 4 boxes but have the end ones be used for food and water instead of nesting.

You only need 2. In fact, you probably *could* get away with just one -- but it’s alway good to put 2 in a coop so that the hens can have a choice. That will save weight for you.

With a small coop, the food and water are best placed in the run. The space taken up by the feeder and waterer doesn’t count when calculating the square footage for either the coop or the run. Additionally, confining them inside the nests would make it impossible for all the chickens to eat/drink at the same time -- opening up the possibility of a bully guarding the food/water.

Technology

We probably won't worry about a heat lamp either since I'm hoping the decomposing litter should generate enough heat for them in the winter.

• How do you manage cords in your coops and runs so that the chickens don't peck into the wires and the rain and snow don't come in through the penetrations for the cords

Unless you live in a truly extreme, severe-cold winter area you don’t have to think about heat. In fact, adequate ventilation renders heat a moot point.

Chickens wear built-in down parkas and readily tolerate cold down to at least 0F as long as they are dry and out of the wind. Ventilation is the key to keeping them dry because their poop and their breath generates a great deal of moisture, particularly at night when roosting. Moisture, which can set up frostbite, is one reason to keep the water in the run (though it’s less of an issue with a closed, horizontal-nipple waterer (which can take a deicer, unlike vertical nipples)).

Cord penetrations are always problematic. The best I’ve been able to come up with are variations on little, swiveling doors that move aside to pass the head of the cord and then swing back to close the opening. I run cords up at the roof then bring them down vertically to where they’re needed.

I’ve only had them in the brooder so I haven’t needed to protect the cords, but when I do put a brooder into the large coop I plan on putting the electric wires into conduit (my DH is qualified to do wiring so I’m not limited to extension cords).

What other advice can you think of to give?

If it makes sense,

Think, but don’t overthink.

No one way works for everyone because locations and preferences vary.

Expect to change your plans. You’ll figure things out as you go along and think of improvements.

Have FUN with your chickens. Don’t let them become a source of stress.

 

[3KillerBs]

That's a lot of detailed questions and a lot of the answers are going to be "it depends". But I'm going to transfer that into a document so I can take my time writing good answers to the things I know about.

First thing, though 5x10 meets the suggested minimums for a run, they're going to look like a can of feathered sardines in there. This photo is 3 Blue Australorp cockerels in a 4x8 space. At this age they were just slightly smaller than an adult hen of that breed.

You might consider having the coop and run in two separate pieces so that you can readily move a larger facility. Within the past month or so someone posted photos of a setup like that which was the most practical tractor I've ever seen but, unfortunately, I was ill at the time and not thinking straight so I forgot to bookmark it.

I'll be back later today with a longer, more detailed post.

 

[saysfaa]

• Yes, the coop is so much smaller than a house that putting the studs the other way works. Besides, the sides and roof will help brace it.
• Half lap would be awesome. It isn't necessary but if you have the tools to do it, it will look better and hold up to the moves better.
• 2 feet
• I'm not sure. Are you moving it by hand or with a lawn mower or truck? If by hand, would it be by yourself? I wouldn't want to try but I am sure you are a LOT stronger than me. Also, if it is put together so it moves smoothly, that matters.
• You should be able to reach under it without much trouble if you are willing to crouch down far enough. At most, a pair of silicon-coated kitchen tongs or a long-handled spoon should do to gather eggs. I have noticed my hens don't like the shorter areas much, and remember to allow clearance for any litter/bedding.
• I'm not sure. Best guess is it won't be as I think you are describing it - 5' wide should be wide enough for a 7' tall structure to be quite stable. I'm even less sure about in high winds though.
• No need to worry about the size of the gap if you have an apron off the bottom. Many people put the wheels on levers so the structure is raised only to move it. Otherwise, cats can fit through any space their skull can fit and dogs will dig under a fence. Hm, "city" hasn't mean no raccoons for a few decades now. They may not be in your city like they are here, further east.
• Wheels that turn will complicate the build by a really lot. You would need either swivel wheels like under a shopping cart and they aren'tvlikely to be big enough in diameter to go over rough ground. Or axels with tie rods and all that. It would be easier to put captive wheels on all four sides. If you put the wheels on levers, you can raise some of them.

 

[saysfaa]

I think the food and water in a nest box will cause problems... they don't like to take turns. They like to either eat together or not let each other eat. Or both.

I used a cement block to raise the water above the bedding.

I agree three nests is enough for 5 hens. My five do well with two.

I don't have electricity to my coop and have no feedback for you about that.

 

[U_Stormcrow]

Because I'm in a blistering hot climate I think a lot about ventilation and airflow.

and I'm in a blistering humid environment (its only 91 today, not hot yet) and spend much more time thinking about doing a thing than going out in 90% humidity and doing the thing! Also, I really like to understand how things work - so I tend to research first. In air conditioning.

 

[Hamstermann]

• ...Are you moving it by hand or with a lawn mower or truck? If by hand, would it be by yourself? I wouldn't want to try but I am sure you are a LOT stronger than me. Also, if it is put together so it moves smoothly, that matters.

Thanks for taking the time to answer so many of my questions! I can probably have my family help me move it most of the time, but I'm sure there will be times that it will just be me. We don't own a farm tractor or riding mower and our camping trailer is in the way of getting the truck into the backyard. I'm tall and big, but not that strong. My lifestyle's kind of sedentary right now, unfortunately :/

 

[saysfaa]

• I don't know. I use deep bedding method but deliberately made it very deep (12"), not looking for the minimum. Having a poop board keeps about half the poop out of the bedding.
• Top of the nesting box or an inch or two or three lower than the roost is probably enough. Less is needed if the roosts are more attractive (spacious length, comfortable width of the board/pole, enough clearance from walls, enough clearance to get up and down, and such)
• I think 2x is too narrow for roosts for standard size breeds. Other people have disagreed. Either way, 2x2 will need support besides on the ends if you don't want it to sag badly.
• Poop comes down at up to a 45 degree angle while they are roosting. That is front to back. It doesn't go sideways much. Usually. So either way could work if there is enough clearance or not if there isn't - a sketch with dimensions will get a better answer. They roost both heads toward the wall and heads away from the wall so the roost opposite the nests still depends on dimensions.
• Height will be: 1' for nest, 1' for roosting bird, 1' for ventilation plus clearance for the bedding, distance between nests and roosts, - so more than 3' but probably not much more than 4'. Times 5' wide is 15 to 20 square feet. T11 comes in two thicknesses, one is 1.8 pounds per square foot. The other is 1.1 pounds per square foot. So 15 to 40 pounds plus framing and hardware. I would use the thicker T11 and not want to lift it. Possibly, you could make the bottom half of the side be the door to make it lighter. Or, you are almost certainly stronger than I am so that might not be too heavy for you.
• Continuing about the clean out door. A piano hing on the bottom would fill up with dust and gunk that would be impossible to brush out. Gate hinges might also but will be better. I think you won't like the door in the way of putting your feet and knees under the coop as you work. If the bottom of the coop is 2 or 3 feet above the ground, the door might not have clearance to swing all the way down.
• Ventilation is at least as important in winter as in summer. I understand blocking some for the winter can make sense but usually people want to block too much. Drawings will help.
• Metal and shingle roofs can both work well; they have different pros and cons. Noise isn't likely to be a factor. Partly because the ventilation gaps will let the noise out enough that the difference the roof makes won't be noticeable. Plexiglass and the like usually doesn't work well (too hot from the greenhouse effect is usually the biggest problem.) In rare circumstances, it does work well.

 

[saysfaa]

Have you considered a single run around all of it with chicken wire divisions or a chicken wire pen to be moved around inside the single run?

 

[U_Stormcrow]

Your birds are going to absolutely destroy that space. In weeks, not seasons. Do yourself a favor, put the coop in the middle of the space. Put a door on opposite sides. Run a fence to spli things in half. Expect it all to become dirt.

Snow loads for 20 psf is the equivalent of 14" accumulation of "perfect" snow, about half that of wet dense snow. A #2 grade 2x4 will carry that, easily, across a 6' span, set 2' on center. Very rare for a need to frame a hen house in anything heavier. Most span and load tables are designed for human occupation and use 1/360 or 1/240 deflection tables - which is not the failure point, and assume 10 psf dead load in addition. Typical dead load on a chicken coop is less than 2 psf, so you have an additional safety factor there as well.