The Buckeye Thread

[Pathfinders]

I also wanted to post a reply I got to an email I sent to Doug Akers, longtime Extension Agent and breeder of excellent show quality poultry in a number of varieties. I had asked him how he felt regarding outcrossing. Here is his reply:

"I've heard a number of breeders who don't believe in outcrossing because too many bad birds will happen in a few years. However, Tommy Stanley was an example of someone who was constantly buying birds for his breeding stock. And, he had great birds of many breeds, every year.

I've added birds from others in some of my breeds, but haven't added anything to Ancona bantams in the 15 years my son & I have had them - haven't found anyone else that has them. In all the years I've had buff orpingtons, I only added a new male one time-about 10 years ago- because mine were getting too light in color. It helped and I haven't the color problem since.

I'm working with Australorps now & have mixed 3 different bloodllines in 4 years. A friend of mine mixed 4 different bloodlines of rhode island red bantams a few years ago & now has some of the best around."

So, I just wanted to post this, because it is my opinion that outcrossing, when done judiciously and with specific goals in mind, can work, and work well. Not if done willy-nilly, but done with a long term plan and clear-cut end results desired.

 

[Pathfinders]

Going through the old thread again, and found a discussion of feather-sexing of Buckeyes. Here are two comments I'll post, with their respective authors:

Tailfeathers
From what little research, and granted it hasn't been a whole lot, feather-sexing has nothing to do with breed but rather is a sex gene that is passed on. It has to be done before they are three days old. From what I've seen and read this is what the hatcheries are using more than the vent-sexing these days.

One can do a BYC or Google Search or go to YouTube and find more information on it. All I know is that when I checked my Barnies there is a definite difference between some of the birds and the difference lines up with the feather-sexing information I've found.

On males the primaries will be the same size and the secondaries and shorter. On females the primaries will be much longer than the secondaries and both will be longer than the females.

Brunty_Farms

It's very common in broilers... not so much in dual purpose breeds. It has to be bred into them. Is it males are straight across and females are jagged feathering in the wings?

In the slow-feathering males the coverts are either the same length or longer than the primary wing feathers. In the fast-feathering females, the primary wing feathers are longer than the coverts. This is caused by a gene located on the sex chromosome where slow feathering is dominant to rapid feathering and controls the rate of wing and tail feathering in the chicken. The dominant slow-feathering characteristic is passed from mothers to their sons and the rapid feathering characteristic from the fathers to their daughters...

Now I personally, have never bothered with trying to feather-sex my birds. I like growing out my cockerels to eat, so wouldn't do anything to get rid of them at a very young age anyway. But I suppose some folks might want to know.

Interesting note about the slow feathering genes and their effect of feather length as chicks. Anyone have any comments about the pluses and minuses of slow-feathering versus fast-feathering?

 

[karenbrat1]

Well poop.... Knitty posted those pix of the beautiful chicks and now all I can think of is how to hatch some of my own out before the end of August - our first frost is usually between October 15th to the 31st. Anyone out there with experience in late hatches?

Like any time, you have to make sure they have heat adequate for the situation, and draft protection. I'm in northern Idaho and our first frost is theoretically mid-September. Winter is cold, windy and snowy, with often one week each in December, January and February that has highs in the teens and lows around zero with a minus-30 wind on top of it. I hatched some out chicks around Thanksgiving last year which started in a 4' x 4' x 2-1/2' tall pen with solid wood sides on the bottom half (this chick pen was in the metal barn, which has the east end open), I put hay bales around the sides for insulation and covered most of it with a tarp, leaving the top front open for ventilation. I used a 250 watt infrared bulb, then downsized to a 150 watt when they seemed ready, then cut off all heat when they were fully feathered. As they grew, they also graduated to a 4' x 10' chicken tractor and then an approx. 9' square hoop coop, also in the barn, before spring. I use the deep bedding method in winter, just adding more letting it pile higher and deeper til spring.

In addition to that incubator hatch, I had a hen go broody who hatched chicks just before Christmas. I did put a 150 watt infrared bulb over the food/water area just in front of the nest so the chicks could comfortably come out to eat and drink. The hen took excellent care of them through the rest of the winter.

 

[Tailfeathers]

I also wanted to post a reply I got to an email I sent to Doug Akers, longtime Extension Agent and breeder of excellent show quality poultry in a number of varieties. I had asked him how he felt regarding outcrossing. Here is his reply:

"I've heard a number of breeders who don't believe in outcrossing because too many bad birds will happen in a few years. However, Tommy Stanley was an example of someone who was constantly buying birds for his breeding stock. And, he had great birds of many breeds, every year.

I've added birds from others in some of my breeds, but haven't added anything to Ancona bantams in the 15 years my son & I have had them - haven't found anyone else that has them. In all the years I've had buff orpingtons, I only added a new male one time-about 10 years ago- because mine were getting too light in color. It helped and I haven't the color problem since.

I'm working with Australorps now & have mixed 3 different bloodllines in 4 years. A friend of mine mixed 4 different bloodlines of rhode island red bantams a few years ago & now has some of the best around."

So, I just wanted to post this, because it is my opinion that outcrossing, when done judiciously and with specific goals in mind, can work, and work well. Not if done willy-nilly, but done with a long term plan and clear-cut end results desired.

"I've heard a number of breeders who don't believe in outcrossing because too many bad birds will happen in a few years. However, Tommy Stanley was an example of someone who was constantly buying birds for his breeding stock. And, he had great birds of many breeds, every year. "

I don't know Tommy Stanley, what he bred, showed, how many birds he kept, discarded, etc. But the above statement on its own really doesn't say anything. I know someone who is "constantly buying birds for his breeding stock" as well. And he does well at the shows. In fact, he just took Best American with a New Hampshire Cock that he bought a couple of months before. Next year he may not even have NH's.

But, let's say for the sake of example that Tommy was bringing in new stock every single year and every single year ending up with "great birds". What does that mean? Did he hatch 100 and keep 1 great bird and do the same with "many breeds"? That's certainly doable. But what does it say about the long term make up of his flock?

I could go on but I'll just end with this. The simple fact of the matter is, ANYTIME one goes outside their flock and brings in "new blood", they are by definition bringing in a whole host of unknowns. Does that mean that nothing good can come out of it? Of course not. It simply means what I said. The breeder must now contend with any number of unknowns and it can take years for some of those to pop up. I would submit that someone who is routinely bringing in "new blood" is not really a breeder but is really good and knowing what their breed should look like at and excellent at culling and picking the birds to show. As Walt often says, not everyone who breeds is a breeder.

"I've heard a number of breeders who don't believe in outcrossing because too many bad birds will happen in a few years." As Doug says, "a number of breeders" don't believe in outcrossing and Doug states why. Seems to add credence to what I'm saying about the "unknown" factor.

God Bless,

 

[Metella]

Interesting .... as a microbiologist - I am following this - but as a non-shower I am interested too .....

There is another possibility - the person adding new blood could be very diligent about picking the new birds, very knowledgable about the sources and such - and therefore the unknown variables are vastly reduced. Still, it is part of the game to get the next generation to maturity and see what is what and make further decisions from this - also - some traits will not fully manifest until the 2nd or 3rd generation - and you can't decide about dominate traits until you really get rocking and rolling - so detailed records are the way to go .... and you can always cull a bird and their whole line of off spring after a few years of a failed try. More is learned by failure in science ....

If I were breeding - I would introduce a new hen or roo to my program very often from other's who exhibit to me my same level or higher of record keeping and concern about the same characteristics I am breeding around.

The biggest determining factor for my imaginary breeding program would be how big (numbers) my flock is - the smaller it is - the more new blood I would bring in...


I also like the practice of not culling until maturity - as so much is hidden in development.

 

[Wynette]

Interesting discussion. I would simply add (and I'm on the fence in regard to whether it's a good idea or not) that unelss the person you're purchasing birds/hatching eggs/chicks (whatever) from is extremely forthright with you, there is just no way to know what may be lurking in another line. I've dealt with this in Marans. I do have a very small handfull of breeders that I know and trust, and that I believe will be honest with me about what they're currently working on, their goals, what they've found that they don't like and are breeding for, etc. Unless you know - without a doubt - that the person you're dealing with is 100% honest, it may not be the best idea to bring in birds from another breeder. JMO

 

[Pathfinders]

Interesting discussion. I would simply add (and I'm on the fence in regard to whether it's a good idea or not) that unelss the person you're purchasing birds/hatching eggs/chicks (whatever) from is extremely forthright with you, there is just no way to know what may be lurking in another line. I've dealt with this in Marans. I do have a very small handfull of breeders that I know and trust, and that I believe will be honest with me about what they're currently working on, their goals, what they've found that they don't like and are breeding for, etc. Unless you know - without a doubt - that the person you're dealing with is 100% honest, it may not be the best idea to bring in birds from another breeder. JMO

Oh yes, no question there. One has to make sure the breeder from whom one is purchasing stock is completely ethical, as well as making sure they are careful about their pens.

Nothing worse than having eggs hatch and seeing traits in a breed that don't belong there, because the person from whom you bought the eggs had a cock bird jump the fence.

Feathered shanks and five toes on a Buckeye are a big disappointment, to be sure.

The other thing to be sure about is, are the birds from a line that will "nic" well with yours. At this stage of the game, Buckeyes have gone in a number of directions, and are no longer all related enough to just cross willy-nilly. One has to be sure no other breeds have been used in them in the past X number of generations, to be sure there won't be any surprises down the line.

But for breeders who are judicious about it, an occasional outcross (or better yet, "braid" in from a line that is related to the one you're working with), can provide real benefits. As I saw when I added Urch birds to my flock several years ago. The color improvement I was looking for came in the next generation, and has been well worth the effort.

 

[slfarms]

I see that other buck breeders have shared photos of their babies. Here is a pic of a late may hatch pullet we are proud of. Taken with my iPhone, no filters in the shade.

 

[slfarms]

How about some pictures? For your viewing pleasure, my cockerel and at least two of my three pullets. These are a few weeks old (ok, looking at the date they were taken it's more like almost two months!). I really need to get some new ones, looking at the picture of my cockerel I just realize how much more "grown up" they looked when I visited them the other day (they are currently living on my grandma's farm because he found his big boy voice about a week later and he is a little louder than my previous rooster whom the neighbors complained about). Speaking of grown up, I have about 17 chicks that are up and coming. I'm not too worried about identifying them yet, since we don't really have the time right now to track this hatch like we did the last one, but I would like to be able to keep track of my birds a little when they are grown. Right now the 7 month olds (pictured above) have colored zip ties, which works ok. But I'm seriously considering getting numbered bands for them. What size would those with more experience recommend?

It depends on your birds leg size. I use 12's for hens and 14's for Roos. That being said my kids are a little large

 

[Metella]

It's official - while my buckeye peep may have some Buckeye in her - I got pooned by the hatchery. She is still that light color in the last picture - even lighter than a red sex link ! At least she is a hen. ha ha ha

And it did spark my interest to learn much more about this breed and decide to get more next spring.

I'm only a few years into chicken keeping ..... so I started with some general hens at the tractor store .... learned more and then got some mixes from a farm and some disguard (old ones that owners couldn't cull) and then learned about so much with that mix .... this year was the first I got from hatcheries (and joined here) so now I've got another lesson learned. ha ha ha I really figured a hatchery would be a decent bet.